• TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee
    1815·
    9 months ago

    Except that,

    • Our objective news - is really just a mess of different slants, some being propaganda, that are not censured even when their content approaches slander due to heavy political bias.

    • Our combating disinformation - is largely unexisting to the point that several large social media providers have abolished or acted against the control they had for doing so and that their CEOs shamelessly meet with presidential candidates with ties to them.

    • Our glorious leader - is hardly accepted as a glorious leader and the portion of the society that does also tend to have absolutely no qualms about becoming more authoritarian by their own admission.

    • Our great religion - is criticized within the country and an increasing number of people are becoming atheists.

    • Our noble populace - Our heroic adventures - Ok, who is writing this meme? Who thinks their society thinks this way? Half the other populace disagrees with the other half, even going so far as to be described as hate, and any mythos of heroic is easily dismissed the moment it becomes convenient to do so not to mention the amount of criticism armed forces get.

    This is whataboutism 101. Not all sides are completely black and white, but not all sides are equally grey.

    • 🔍🦘🛎@lemmy.worldEnglish
      122·
      9 months ago

      The whole point is that the two nations are the same, but some of the population doesn’t see it that way. Of course our news is filled with propaganda, that’s what this meme is saying. Of course our troops are carrying out the whims of a despot. But blind nationalism paints these as the right and true path.

    • PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de
      21·
      9 months ago

      I don’t think this comic was about you or your country. It’s about how nationalists frame things in their own vs. other countries.

      • TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee
        11·
        9 months ago

        Except that at least nationalists can be criticized in mine, creating such a mess in a first place. In theirs, if not explicit social censorship, there’s clear persecution of the barest opposition.

  • collapse_already@lemmy.mlEnglish
    92·
    9 months ago

    There is a reason the Geneva Convention (and the Hague protocols before it) prohibit assassination. That reason is that the Glorious Leader and the Wicked Despot have more in common with each other than they do with us peons. Don’t anyone get too excited during our “war” (population reduction, economic stimulus package, domestic troubles distraction). Invest in defense contractors, the elite will keep them fed.

    Remember the average dude in China, Iran, Russia, etc is no more interested in dying to aggrandize his rich owners than you are.

    • BlanketsWithSmallpox@lemmy.worldEnglish
      61·
      9 months ago

      Remember the average dude in China, Iran, Russia, etc is no more interested in dying to aggrandize his rich owners than you are.

      True, and you also have to remember that many of them have it ingrained in their culture to hate enough to kill gays, other religious people, races, etc.

      Despite how much people love to say one culture isn’t better than any other… There absolutely are if you’re looking through a lens of equality. Particularly if you’ve grown up in a more westernized nation where non-perfect progress has been made on those points.

      Let’s just hope the west doesn’t continue turning into Yallqaeda and all the lost Fascists suddenly earn a Herman Cain award.

    • It's A Faaaahhkeah!@lemmus.orgEnglish
      13·
      9 months ago

      Typical sense of entitlement from a purple, they’re all the same, that primitive purple brain can’t comprehend other light waves exist.

  • brown567@sh.itjust.works
    273·
    9 months ago

    I think about this whenever I see legislative efforts to “prevent disinformation” XD

    I hate disinformation as much as the next guy, but we gotta be careful who we give charte blanche to censor information XD

    • thawed_caveman@lemmy.world
      513·
      9 months ago

      Yeah i’ve learned not to trust this kind of simmetrical worldview, even when it makes me feel smart for being above it.

      • TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee
        4·
        9 months ago

        What if instead of taking it as saying all things are symmetrical we take it to mean that we have a tendency to consider outsiders to be “savage” or simply “other” even when the evidence doesn’t support that? Then this shitpost would be more like a warning against xenophobia.

        You chose an interpretation you didn’t like just so you could dismiss it. And you don’t think your goal in doing so is to feel intellectually superior? You’re another.

        • azertyfun@sh.itjust.works
          01·
          9 months ago

          What if instead of aggressively going off on people we consider that they may have valid experiences shaping their worldview, and that their point is not even necessarily opposed to ours anyway?

          • TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee
            1·
            9 months ago

            I think we have the same point here - and there’s no aggression. That’s more of your cyber brain fleshing out details of a person one cannot know but only touches through a singular on-screen opinion. You attributed aggression because it went with the context. See how quickly this shit happens? And people are actually dismissing the meme… it’s happening right in front of us

    • TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee
      411·
      9 months ago

      no, you’re just so lost in years of political memes that you can’t understand a simple point anymore. this isn’t about fuckin Russia or fascism or the election. it’s about demonizing and polarizing our equals. and you’ve clearly eaten that fuckin bait in one bite, you’re experiencing so much cognitive disonancia that you can’t even see beyond your own petty politics and just worry that OMG SOMEONE ISNT CALLING THE THING I DONT LIKE A BAD THING ITS BAD BAD BAD CMON thats this entire fucking thread and the entire political landscape around here, no I’m not okay and none of you are. I’m so fucking sick of internet politics and everyone’s fucking unnuanced cliches and worthless calls to arms

      • Ð Greıt Þu̇mpkin@lemm.ee
        53·
        9 months ago

        Good God it’s like I can hear how white you are!

        That’s a pretty easy opinion to have when that “difference of opinions” isn’t over your right to live and be considered a full human with full and equitable human rights.

        This sounds more like you’re lashing out because someone NCed you after getting tired of your peacekeeper complex moving you to try and shut them up whenever they were getting into it with the weird uncle at Thanksgiving because “you’re the reasonable one come on please just take the high road here!”

        • TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee
          11·
          9 months ago

          when that “difference of opinions” isn’t over your right to live

          WHERE in this meme does it specify any of that? The point of this meme is that both scenarios are EXACTLY the same.

          YOU CHOOSE to say “Well what about when they aren’t the same! I bet you call them the same then too!”

          Or these absolute lunatics who are calling me a… Putin supporter? Where the fuck is that coming from?

          You all need a SERIOUS DETOX from this political shit. This is no longer about awareness or collective action or “bearing witness to the end” or whatever justifications you make to spend your hours posting this nonsense. This is about detachment from actual human connections where we experience real differences of opinion and find ways to mediate those differences

          As for whatever that fantasy is at the end of your comnment, you’re even farther from the truth than the morons calling me a Putin supporter. but that’s an appropriate example of the kind of DELUSIONS that online politics are forcing you into. someone says ONE FUCKING THING and you suddenly WRITE AN ENTIRE STORY for them to conform to who you believe would hold that one opinion. stop treating people like fucking abstract ideas and shut the fuck up and LISTEN for once. stop dismissing everything and calling everything counteraction!

          at the end of the day all I’m talking about is learning to understand others, and we’re getting lost in these discourses. stop just dismissing everything for once and fucking listen

            • TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee
              01·
              9 months ago

              I guess we’re at the point where any nuance is lost and you’re just gonna throw the third set of buzzwords out. But oh well, hey, “it’s just c/shitpost” right! Or maybe if that’s the case, political matters deserve more nuance than a shitposting community can deliver, and by showing half-assed engagement in political discourse this way we become part of the problem.

              • Ð Greıt Þu̇mpkin@lemm.ee
                01·
                9 months ago

                Man you are just the fattest piece of troll bait I’ve ever seen, it takes literally nothing to set you off bro.

        • duffman@lemmy.world
          01·
          9 months ago

          It’s still odd seeing people proudly being racist. It will be great when you all go slithering back to your holes.

      • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
        1·
        9 months ago

        Because it isn’t always true? Sometimes you government just has regular levels of suck while the other government is really awful. I am confident that the South Korean government has room for improvement I am not willing to put them on the same level as North Korea. Plus you can look at migration flows. There is a reason why some countries have people willing to risk death to get into and other countries people are trying to get out of.

        • GBU_28@lemm.eeEnglish
          194·
          9 months ago

          It’s addressing the concept of demonization, a la Israel and Palestine. It’s via these mechanisms that other people are dehumanized.

          Not Karen v Karen at the pta meeting.

            • TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee
              22·
              9 months ago

              Ah yes, the runaway Reddit train of: “Anyone who sees anything in the world as more than plain good vs evil is evil”

              Like most subreddits, what started as an interesting idea (calling out people who supported fascism by saying anti-fascism was as bad as it) devolved into an absolutely moronic circlejerk (anyone who says anything is the same as anything else is a bot).

            • GBU_28@lemm.eeEnglish
              31·
              9 months ago

              Miss.

              Again it’s about any group demonizing another.

              The process of generating the “subhuman” other based on misinformation.

              It’s not about holding people to their honest record.

              Playing the middle and saying “both sides” is completely different than what this image is displaying.

              • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
                23·
                9 months ago

                Miss.

                Again it is about exactly what I said. “Our glorious leader” is not about other people it is both sideism.

                It’s about playing both sideism.

                What side are you on in Russia-Ukraine? No question dodging “enlightened centralist”.

                • GBU_28@lemm.eeEnglish
                  22·
                  9 months ago

                  If your whole view is just shit reposted on Lemmy about American politics sure.

                  You’re just exposing your field of vision.

    • MelodiousFunk@slrpnk.net
      622·
      9 months ago

      I’m not sure whether the version of this I saw previously was the original and this post was cropped, or if this post is the original and the other text was added later. But I much prefer the context here:

      • Ð Greıt Þu̇mpkin@lemm.ee
        8·
        9 months ago

        Ahh see this I can get behind, reminds me of the Soviet anti alcohol poster that’s become a meme too

        Good original intent, less good modern applications

        The dawn of nationalism was definitely the mistake of the previous age I think. Peoples should be able to self govern autonomously, but not under a guise of “the nation” which inherently forms an out group to be excluded.

        I like the Arabic/American way to do it, “You wanna be one of us? Well then you’re already half way there!”

        I speak very little Arabic but my teacher has told me that I already know enough to get the long list cousin’s welcome among most L1 speakers lol.

    • Abucketofpuppies@lemmy.world
      95·
      9 months ago

      Hmmm it’s almost as if politics and ethics are very nuanced and one answer is never correct in every situation…

      • niktemadur@lemmy.world
        43·
        9 months ago

        One faction has a messiah fixation, thumps a Bible they’ve never even read (they just let some pastor tell them what’s in it), obsesses over guns and other peoples’ private (by which I mean sexual) lives and reproductive organs. They’ve been told and so believe that Sodom and Gomorrah was about the sex, but it was about righteousness and hospitality - and these are two things that they themselves lack completely.

        There is a real problem, a real danger, because it fits historical patterns we’ve seen before - the so-called “ideas” that they spout with the language that they use - and they end up mindlessly, senselessly bringing EVERYBODY down with them.

        They are a menace to all of us. Including themselves, but they don’t see it. And neither does the “both sides” argument, a lazy excuse for not acknowledging that the proverbial emperor has no clothes.

        • TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee
          2·
          9 months ago

          I’m not sure if this “faction” you speak of is really as clear cut as you think it is. Nor whether it’s being depicted in the comic. You’re specifically reading your “faction” belief into this comic in order to criticize it.

          What would the other “faction” be? Would it not be people in the same country? Does the meme even apply at that point?

          This shit is clearly about xenophobia and all of you responding with Reddit Buzzwords are completely missing that point. In fact, you’re contributing to xenophobia by refusing to recognize it. You might have more in common with the “bible thumpers” than you realized.

      • Ð Greıt Þu̇mpkin@lemm.ee
        226·
        9 months ago

        One side thinks the answer is “do fascism”, so I think it may be fair to conclude that one of the proposed answers is at least wrong in every situation.

        • Abucketofpuppies@lemmy.world
          618·
          9 months ago

          Yes, every right-wing politician is pushing for ‘do fascism’

          Probably like they did your mom last night. BOOM GOTCHA

            • Sotuanduso@lemm.eeEnglish
              4·
              9 months ago

              Until the third paragraph, it sounded like something you might think was reasonable for lefties to do. Then I got to the bits about cutting regulations to promote fossil fuels and, according to an “anonymous source” (which I frankly don’t trust because it’s from a biased newspaper,) weaponizing the DOJ and national guard against critics.

              • Atyno@dmv.socialEnglish
                0·
                9 months ago

                How do you read the first paragraph and think any of that was ok, left or right?

                The spoils system is awful and should remain a relic of the past.

  • x4740N@lemmy.worldEnglish
    141·
    9 months ago

    What I get from this image is that one side will call the other side evil while the other side will do the same

    It’s best to look at the actions of a person or group rather than what they state they are doing

  • thantik@lemmy.worldEnglish
    73·
    9 months ago

    Rule of the world. The most violent ape gets to continue his lineage. To continue to pretend that we’re more than violent apes is naive.

    • emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works
      1·
      9 months ago

      The most violent ape probably got murdered once he pissed off enough other apes. But the ape that used violence strategically is probably the ancestor of today’s leaders.

      • thantik@lemmy.worldEnglish
        1·
        9 months ago

        That’s an incredible point. Intelligence allowed violence to be used more strategically.

    • TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee
      3·
      9 months ago

      Come on, you know that creatures who evolved the capacity for linguistic communication adapted to external forces with more than just greater and greater violence. We’re not whispering cobras. We’re creatures that demand community. The reason we even feel emotions like shame and love is to bond us together as a tribe for greater protection.

      • thantik@lemmy.worldEnglish
        0·
        9 months ago

        The reason we even feel emotions like shame and love is to bond us together as a tribe for greater protection violence.

        FTFY.

        • TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee
          1·
          9 months ago

          Damn, social structure only does violence? At this point I’m convinced you’re just moralizing your own traumas. Are we heading for anti-natalism?

          • thantik@lemmy.worldEnglish
            1·
            9 months ago

            Nah, anti-natalism would be anti-progress. Evolution is a process that should continue to happen. Even Evolution is violence. Violence is necessary for life. It’s a core part of what allowed us to exist in the first place. It’s one of the fundamental forces of life. The problem is seeing violence as inherently bad. Or humans as inherently special.

            Once you start viewing humanity the same way you’d view organisms in a Petri Dish, you’ll have gotten it. Higher order functionality is neat and all, but fundamentally not shattering to our basic goals. It doesn’t overwrite our core reason for being: To spread.

            When talking about something like Game Theory, one of the most effective strategies follows only a few basic rules:

            1. Cooperate with others.
            2. If wronged, strike back.
            3. Don’t hold a grudge.

            So - as you can see - even the most effective, cooperative strategies, employ violence.

            • TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee
              0·
              9 months ago

              I see! Well, isn’t it also true that even the most effective violent strategies also employ cooperation? Why only highlight the violence - is it to serve a need or narrative?

              • thantik@lemmy.worldEnglish
                02·
                9 months ago

                Maybe…because that’s the focus of the original post…

                The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

    • GBU_28@lemm.eeEnglish
      7·
      9 months ago

      Alternatives?

      I see 2:

      • full hegemonic domination of one nation state where everyone gets their basics met. Star trek style.

      • intense local tribalism where you’re doing a whole lot more defending your land than you are now

      • Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social
        62·
        9 months ago

        Or maybe there’s a dozen alternatives that could work better and both of us are staring at this from the bottom of a pro-hierarchy well that we’ve been stuck in ever since one guy convinced another one he should be in charge.

        I don’t have a full solution, I just want us to be flexible enough to figure one (or more) out.

        “The international ideal unites the human race”

        • GBU_28@lemm.eeEnglish
          31·
          9 months ago

          One guy will always convince another of that. If the other guy disagrees, well, time for sticks and stones.

          My point is you either go small, and groups self assemble however you want, but you’ll have many neighbors who might not see it your way.

          Or you go big, and everyone’s efforts go to one shared goal, and everyone is a equal “citizen”. Ideally with collective shared goals folks are doing ok.

          Or you go medium, which is what we have now. Some groups are positioned and prepared to do good stuff, and others are fighting with and nail just to hold it together. There’s gonna be friction with neighbors, like with “small” but the problem is “mediums” got some real big sticks and stones.

          There’s no right answer and I obviously didn’t cover everything. But without groups of some kind, people will get picked off. There’s no period of human history that disagrees with me.

            • GBU_28@lemm.eeEnglish
              3·
              9 months ago

              Realists?

              Provide a single example of anything aside from what I described, in any period of human history that both:

              • did not maintain power through economic or just militaristic dominance of their local region

              • did not experience conflict with their neighbors.

              They either had cohesive, hegemonic domination within their borders and geographic separation from rivals, or had challenges with bordering nation states.

              I personally hope for a star trek future

              • Cataphract@lemmy.ml
                1·
                9 months ago

                Is this like a sound scientific theory that has some relevance to modern times? I could list off a myriad of “this thing has never existed in human history” making current times unique and possibly different when looking at cultural nuances. I get what you’re saying totally, but this is a new era of history with the formation of Alliances like NATO and the EU that has really just started in regards to our span of time. Also, we tend to only hear about the “bloody” years of a society. One war can outshine hundreds or thousands of years with prosperity and peace so the whole doom thing seems like fear mongering.

            • GBU_28@lemm.eeEnglish
              1·
              9 months ago

              How is a bottom up democracy with federal features not a government? All governments have borders, unless you’re suggesting* a global system

              Edit all governments with borders are effectively nation states.

              • PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de
                0·
                9 months ago

                A government is imo not bottom-up by my definition. There is no formal “citizens of Rojava” , they are just members of their communes. There is no federal police force.

                • GBU_28@lemm.eeEnglish
                  2·
                  9 months ago

                  Just looked that up. It’s absolutely suffering from the things I mentioned, including military conflict with their neighbors.

                  It’s a place with borders, that hopes to set internal law , and maintain itself. That’s a nation state. It is defined as a “federated semi direct democracy” and has a legislature “Syrian democratic council”

                  That’s a new, embattled nation

      • bigFab@lemmy.world
        01·
        9 months ago

        I’d go for the second, with pleasure. Better spend my time fighting for hometown than working for a big profit-driven company.

  • aesthelete@lemmy.world
    15·
    9 months ago

    It’s worth pointing out that the two opposing countries / nations / city states in this cartoon would have to have similar governments with similar charters, and similar selection processes for their representatives.

    It is lunacy to say things like “Obummer was a dictator!” when he was selected twice by people voting, and then peaceably left the office after his two terms completely in line with the Constitution.

    Now can you say the same thing about, for instance, Putin?

    • considine@lemmy.ml
      05·
      9 months ago

      It’s important to follow the laws of the land, otherwise there is damage to the system. Legal framework, electoral framework, political framework. So when answering your question about Putin, the electoral rules and legalities of Russia’s system must be examined. Were they violated?

      That is also a question on the US national agenda for Trump. It is important to consider his case in context of the system. And to compare his real estate dealings to others who deal in real estate. What was the severity and nature of the alleged crime? Are these kinds of behaviors common in the American political class?

  • Fat Tony@lemm.ee
    67·
    9 months ago

    I feel like the artist originally wanted to make this primarily medieval themed. But then realisied “Oh yeah, news and stuff are a thing.” And then just added laptops and antennas.