The Brazilian president, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, has said he hopes the crisis surrounding the social network X in Brazil might teach the world that “it isn’t obliged to put up with [Elon] Musk’s far-right free-for-all just because he is rich”.
Lula’s comments to the network CNN Brasil came after the supreme court voted unanimously on Monday to uphold the ban on X, which is now largely inaccessible in one of its biggest global markets.
The suspension was first ordered on Friday as a result of the company’s refusal to obey court orders requiring the removal of profiles accused of spreading disinformation and for the social network to name a local legal representative.
When I was younger I was taught that authoritarianism was a trait of right-wing politics.
I believed that at the time.
What I was taught was wrong, as we can see in this article.
Not authoritarianism, fascism.
Democracy: has laws
Business: ignores the law
Democracy: bans business for failure to follow the laws
You: “is the authoritarianism?”
The only part in all of this where an individual is deciding what happens is where Elon Musk is deciding what should and shouldn’t be illegal. You are arguing for authoritarianism.
it’s called the Paradox Of Tolerance.
Protecting citizens is an important thing in democracies.
Protecting citizens from receiving the wrong kind of information about political matters? That doesn’t sound democratic at all, much less like an important thing.
All those downvotes you’re getting shows me that Lemmy is exactly like Reddit. Hivemind
“Can people really be disagreeing with me?”
“No, it must be the hivemind.”
You really should read Karl Popper’s Paradox of Tolerance to understand why this is important, and why “the only way to counter speech is with more speech” isn’t just wrong, it’s actually counterproductive.
Here’s the short version, if it helps.
Even if you agree with that argument (which I don’t), that was written about ideologies like fascism, Nazism, Stalinism, which were (when they were relevant) actually very suppressive of free speech when they were in power, more so than current left-leaning authoritarians who are defending the blocking of ex-Twitter in Brazil or (worse) saying that other countries should do similar things.
His wealth also doesn’t mean we need to accept his wealth as valid.
It’s just make believe numbers.
Just like your paycheck
Except they do work for their paycheck, unlike musk with the number he has amassed.
Based Lula.
You’re the only person who used this expression correctly, ever.
And it doesn’t mean Musk has any valid and useful intelligence. He got handed money early in life, got lucky with PayPal, and now thinks because of all of that, his views on the world matter. They don’t. He’s a piece of shit and the world should reject him among many others.
And still salty enough to rename twitter to the company that merged with PayPal since PayPal was such a better name
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X.com_(bank)
Also ask Musk fanboys who Greg Kouri is and they have no idea
Elon is the tech version of Murdoch and is more dangerous because of his worldwide access through Twitter. Unfortunately the extremists will have more of a voice and propaganda will overwhelm the media. Since the media is controlled by billionaires they have no interest in exposing them
Elon is more dangerous because he’s a US government contractor which means his incessent law breaking and bullshittery will mean the US government will go to bat for him in a conflict
Wouldn’t want those military secrets getting out
he ate that
why the downvotes im on the presidents side
Why the downvotes?
More like Far-right-free fall
More like fart-fight free-ball
More like “Cartwright! Your table is ready. Cartwright!”
Based af Frfr ❌ 🧢
You’re the second person to use this expression correctly, ever.
I hope that my country’s goverment makes the other countries realise how dangerous this man is.
brazilian futurism was not what I expected for 2024 but I’m pleasantly surprised
Better than Brazilian dystopianism
We should preemptively offer to extradite
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Wikipedia about this sourceDid this bot really just post a fact check of itself
Rating itself higher than AP (or was it Reuters?) even.
Definitely AP. Not sure about Reuters.
Fucking thank you. It’s nice to see at least some heads of state actually have the stones to tell Phony Stark to fuck off.
I would tune in to watch Low-T Stark test out a robotic rocket suit live.
Except it does. Money = speech = power and he has the most of any human.
Downvote this all you want, it won’t change the reality that Musk is more powerful than any other human currently alive on earth. I hate him too, but you can’t deny his power.
Money = Speech = Power
Maybe in the US it is so, but the Citizens United decision does not apply outside of there. Some countries value the power of democracy more than money.
Name one. All I see is lip service. Action is a whole different matter.
I mean what are we looking at right now?
Another example: Unions don’t cave to Tesla in Sweden, this dispute appears to be still ongoing even after another 9 months.
Real life isn’t a Marvel movie.
The assesment that he’s the wealthiest person on earth is pretty dubious, actually. The analyses which list the worlds wealthiest people always are, because they have to decide what counts as wealth and how to count it.
Normally that’s fairly easy, but for very powerful people (who, as you point out, the people at the top of those lists are) it gets murky because of things like stocks and options which they could liquidate in theory, but which would crash in value if they tried to actually do so. Does it still count as wealth if it only exists so long as you don’t spend it?
There are also people who’s wealth isn’t held in any currency, or gold, or stocks. How do you measure the wealth or power of a sovereign king, or any other kind of dictator? You certainly can’t neatly put it in a scale alongside people who just have a dragon’s horde of cash somewhere, that wouldn’t be comparing like for like
How do you measure the wealth or power of a sovereign king, or any other kind of dictator?
This is also borne out in practice as you watch the purportedly “most powerful man on Earth” constantly tap dance for Putin in lockstep with the GOP. As a kleptocratic dictator, he informally adds the entire country’s economy to his personal net worth.
The GOP is foaming at the mouth to form a right-wing dictatorship in this country for precisely the reason you are addressing here. A person with powers of complete dictatorship over the world’s biggest economy would definitively make them the most powerful man on Earth without a second even deserving mention.
SCOTUS told America the President could have anyone killed as long as it was an official act. And you’re still going to say the guy with an indirect access to influence has more power?
Hah.
Turns out that if you are not a Right-wing shit head you can legislate and govern against people with money that try to do as they will :O
It’s all a ruse
The three most powerful people on earth are the US President, the President of the Russian Federation, and any Captain of an Ohio class submarine
and money chooses who each of these is
By that logic musk would be president right now so doesnt make much sense. Its less about money and more about your family and friends. Almost all presidents of the United states have been descendants from the same british family. Including Obama yes.
I was completely with you until the conspiracy theory about a single British family and Obama. JFC. 😂
Seriously though. You gotta have a credible source for something like that. Share that Fox News link already!
Thats not a secret my dude and its not even that crazy of a fact. Basically everyone is related if you just go back enough generations.
Almost all of them stem from families that came to america during colonial times.
Related: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Stock_Americans
Whats more interesting tho is this chart that doesnt go back quite as far. You can still see that being president is not going to happen unless you have connections
Your own links indicate that the presidents came from separate families. Am l missing a key section that explains that they all came from the same family as you indicated?
If you dialed back the narrow specificity of your original claim, I would agree with your sentiment, as I think most here would. I feel like we may be debating a semantic here.
He also said almost all of the presidents, then links to a genealogy that lists less than half.
I dont know who first claimed the whole “King John” thing or how well proven it is, but whats not disputed is that many of them are pretty closely related. They might not actually all be descendant from one specific guy but for practical purposes they behave like it. They are a closed circle that is impossible to just enter.
https://familypedia.fandom.com/wiki/Genealogical_relationships_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States
You’re going to need to source that.
Not OP but it got my brain curious. Found several different sites about it, here are 2 that seem fairly reputable. Apparently a 12yr old genealogy buff did an extensive search to map the presidents and came across some connections that kept them going till they found the chain of relatives for each one.
It doesn’t seem like “put on your tin foil hat close-related”, more “if you go back far enough most of us are kin in some way related”. Though, the fact that the only one who is not related, was actually appointed instead of elected, does make it look a little weird.
https://www.geni.com/blog/look-whos-related-george-washington-and-all-the-presidents-25451.html
https://familypedia.fandom.com/wiki/Genealogical_relationships_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States
Oh wow. Thanks.
No prob Mr Maggoty. Figured I couldn’t be the only one curious, why make more folks dive down that rabbit hole.
Musk becoming president is
very real possibility, average person becoming president is not unless miracles happen. While yes, money alone can’t so easily get you power but it is requirement for it.It is constitutionally impossible for Musk to become president.
How so? Is it about birth place?
Yes, the US constitution requires that the president be at least 35 and a natural born citizen. There is more info here.
Why isn’t Trump president?
Why is there even possibility such man can realistically be president?
I would like to see some evidence that Elon Musk can choose who is captain of an Ohio class submarine.
He cant choose but with money, he can influence people who can influence who is chosen.
Doesn’t seem like it’s working out so well for him on Brazil…
I’m sure he’ll cry about it a lot while wiping his tears away with bills worth more than you or I will ever make in a lifetime.
Uhh okay? He’s so powerful his website (which he didn’t want to buy in the first place) is blocked in a whole country.
A number of whole countries, Brazil is just the most recent.
The nazis, too, had a lot of power and yet they lost WW II.
Lula is so fucking great. He’s literally just backing up the courts that are applying the law fairly and as-written, which is more than I can say for most leaders.
Don’t get me wrong, Lula is correct on this. But he’s still a scummy politician who has a questionable past
What’s the questionable past?
Raising 20 million Brazilians out of poverty, while making his country the 8th largest economy in the world? I’m sure he’s as corrupt as any Brazilian politician, but none of them have anything that comes even close to that to show for it.
He also got arrested for one of the largest corruption scandals in the history of Brazil. It’s a complex person. We can criticize his vices and praise his virtues at the same time.
Oh arrested? Wow, only guilty people are arrested by states led by their fascist political rivals. If he’s arrested, he must be guilty. That’s how justice works.
You could’ve said “convicted”, but that was annulled and a UN human rights committee found that:
The committee concluded that prosecutors and the lead judge in the investigation, Sergio Moro, showed bias in Lula’s case, violating his right to be presumed innocent.
I’m not a fan of politicians in general, but I’d take these charges more seriously if the people prosecuting them weren’t so flagrantly politically motivated and breaking the rules. Presumably the reason he was tried in the wrong court was because the state was shopping for a judge that wouldn’t give him a fair trial. If he’s that guilty, they’ve muddied the waters by not actually caring about his guilt, and it’s going to be way harder to get anything to stick anymore. Like they were in charge of the whole fucking country, how were they this bad at persecuting him?
What I do know is that when a fascist like Bolsonaro is that mad at you, you might actually be doing something right.
To be fair, you don’t have to be doing anything for fascisti to hate you. That’s kinda their schtick.
Cooking up charges and rigging a court case specifically to take you down is a different level of hate though.
It’s politics. You could have some shoplifting charge from 40 years ago and people will yell about how you’re the worst and attempt to invalid everything you do because of it.
Listen, Musk is an asshole who has created large problems at Xitter. There is absolutely no debate on that.
HOWEVER I have to wonder if most of the people cheering what’s happening in Brazil actually know what’s going on?
Did you know that one single Judge has been given the power the censor the Internet? Do you know that no justification needs to be released to the public about WHY a person, account, or post is being censored, removed, or banned? Do you know that this Judge actually banned Apple and Google from distributing any VPN Software before they were forced to change the order due to public outcry? Do you know that the fines this Judge is issuing have no basis in the law?
Even prominent Brazilian Attorneys, like Thiago Amparo, who previously supported this Judge and their work are now saying that it’s going too far.
Brazil now has an Internet Censor who obviously doesn’t understand the technology who is issuing censorship orders that require no justification and to the surprise of no one his orders are helpful almost entirely to the current President specifically and the ruling party in general.
Here’s an archive link to the New York Times giving more details.
So yeah, screw Musk but also screw whatever unholy state censorship is going on down in Brazil too.
So yeah, delete your account(s)
I haven’t used Xitter since before Elon took it over.
Did you know that one single Judge has been given the power the censor the Internet? Do you know that no justification needs to be released to the public about WHY a person, account, or post is being censored, removed, or banned?
Replace judge with CEO and ask the question again.
Replace judge with CEO and ask the question again.
The CEO can’t threaten to throw you in prison and freeze your bank accounts, two things that this Judge did. That’s why Xitter doesn’t have a Legal Representative in the country anymore. The last one resigned after being threatened by the Judge and Xitter won’t appointment a new one because of that.
But sure, a CEO has exactly the same power as a Supreme Court Justice. Literally no difference at all.
That’s not the point. We already know Musk is bad.
Not sure why the judge can’t be bad too.
I guess saying “Elon bad” is enough to be a hero in Lemmy’s eyes?
Actual discussion of the post: -1 score
Stupid play on words comment disparaging the right: highest score in comment section
Wish we could see how legitimate upvotes and downvotes are or if lemmy is a lot of teenagers who dont have the patience.
Im uneducated on the politics of brazil. I think censoring might be conducted without a fully evil intent, but people’s ability to reason about validity of information should be fostered instead of disallowing certain speech.
Scary to think you’d be arrested for using a social media site.Thats not okay. And its brazils decisions regardless of musk.Disinformation should be downvoted. Then corrected.
For example, you said you could be arrested for using a social media site. There’s nothing in that decision that implies this.
I guess im not sure what happens if you dont pay a fine. Probably getting arrested right? Because the fine is like 7.5k a day.
Brazil is a signatory of the American Convention on Human Rights, meaning you can’t be arrested for owing money. The sole exception is being detained for wilfully not paying alimony.
The worst evils always start with lofty intentions.
I dont know what that means.
Scary to think you’d be arrested for using a social media site.
Scary to think conservatives have power anywhere on planet earth, given how they just make random shit up and then accuse people of that made up bullshit whenever they want. Scary to think how conservatism is the single biggest threat to humanity and should be eradicated. Scary to think.
Sorry are you memeing or did you want to talk about something? What are you suggesting be done?
Talk? 🤣 The time for talk was several years ago. It is not possible for a conservative to enter any discussion in good faith, as every word uttered by a conservative is either deception or manipulation. Every word.
Im not a conversative, im just a person who isnt calibrated to the echo chamber. Sorry for the confusion.
Every word.
Have you heard of the research showing conservativism is highly associated with Big Five personality traits (which are considered mostly immutable)?
I hope you understand the implications of that finding when paired with a statement like:
conservatism is the single biggest threat to humanity and should be eradicated
The initial ruling was by a single judge but it was upheld yesterday by a panel of five supreme court justices:
Members of Brazil’s supreme court have unanimously voted to uphold the ban on X, after Elon Musk’s refusal to comply with local laws led to the social network being blocked in one of its biggest markets.
They didn’t approve the “Initial Ruling”. They approved the amended version that didn’t bar Apple and Google from distributing VPN Software and didn’t create a 5 day deadline.
Do you know WHY Xitter doesn’t just appoint a legal representative and sidestep this mess? It’s because this same Judge threatened to imprison the last one and pre-emptively froze her bank accounts!
https://time.com/7016537/brazil-blocks-elon-musk-x-twitter-company-refuses-comply-judge/
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5y3rnl5qv3o
This is not how a legal system is supposed to behave.
Can you share where you saw “threatening to arrest and froze bank account”? Twitter made a post on their own page about something along the line. Other than that I couldn’t find any.
The resignation of the legal representative has more nuance than what you said here. His
(not her)name is Diego de Lima Gualda, an attorney in Brazil. After a series of non compliance from Twitter, the Twitter Brazil filed a request arguing that the Twitter international is responsible for compliance and Twitter Brazil does not have authority. The judge dismissed this request for obvious reasons, and the next day he resigned from the position.The non compliance led to resignation. This is crucial because the actions of Twitter are the reason why the legal representative faced the consequences. Not that the judge ordered something out of the blue. I think you are missing the key point here.
Obviously censorship is bad. There is no contention in that. My point is this order is the last one in the long standing feud between Musk and Moraes. Musk has been so aggressive in personally attacking the judge. So portraying the judge as someone going on a power trip is not the accurate picture.
Edit: Adding more info here. The entire information on the freezing bank account and arrest of the legal representative of Twitter Brazil, is from the Twitter Global Affairs handle. They published a “secret order” from the judge. A few things I noticed are these looks like cherry picked pages of a bigger document due to lack of continuity between page 1 and 2. Usually court orders will include the full context of the petition. Second point is the obvious circumventing strategy the Global Affairs of Twitter also states. They reiterate that only “Twitter International” is responsible for compliance, and not “Twitter Brazil”. This absurd argument introduces the problem of jurisdiction. This is just Twitter trying to fly above the law.
Earlier I said the legal representative was Diego de Lima Gualda, after his resignation they informed that Rachel de Oliveira Vila Nova Conceição will be the new representative. The order says:
indicates that the representative of the company X BRASIL INTERNET LTDA., RACHEL DE OLIVEIRA VILLA NOVA CONCEIÇÃO, acting in bad faith, is trying to avoid the regular notification of the decision handed down in the proceedings, including by electronic means, of which she has already demonstrated knowledge, with the aim of frustrating its compliance.
Therefore, given the negative ruling of the summons and the reported impossibility of contacting the legal representative of the aforementioned company, I DETERMINE THAT the lawyers legally appointed by X BRASIL INTERNET LTDA. be IMMEDIATELY INTIMATED, including electronic means, so that they adopt the necessary measures to comply with the order, within 24 (twenty-four) hours, under penalty of:
(1) DAILY FINE OF R$20,000.00 (twenty thousand reais) to company administrator, RACHEL DE OLIVEIRA VILLA NOVA CONCEIÇÃO (CPF 255.747.418-57), CUMULATIVE THAT IMPOSED ON THE COMPANY, as well as DECREE OF PRISON for disobeying a court order;
I think these words are self explanatory. Twitter tried to delay the compliance just by making the legal representative unreachable. This along with the argument that Twitter Brazil is not responsible shows a clearer picture of what Twitter was trying to do and what actually happened. Again I don’t see where the “bank account freezing” is written.
Edit 2: I forgot to state the obvious. The representative who resigned is not the one who faced fines or “decree of prison”. These are two different representatives. Again the representative is facing this because of the actions of Twitter. This is not a case of judicial activism.
This is not how a legal system is supposed to behave.
But it don’t work that way, he can threaten how much he want, the same way that he threatened to ban VPN, but he can’t do whatever he want
A. There’s an appeals process.
B. If we accept a Chinese version of Google then there’s no reason we can’t accept a Brazilian version of X.
Musk could have blocked those accounts from being visible in Brazil and then had his legal representative argue that’s compliance. That would put the ball back in Brazil’s court. Instead Tony Stark wannabe is trying to just go around the government, violating it’s sovereignty. Something most countries take pretty poorly.
So we actually don’t know if Brazil would have required X to ban them globally. Nobody tested that.
B. If we accept a Chinese version of Google then there’s no reason we can’t accept a Brazilian version of X.
You understand Google is banned in China because they wouldn’t accept censure right?
You know that Twitter isn’t banned in Turkiye and India because they complied with their requests for censure, since you know, those are right wing governments run by strong men that the Apartheid beby likes? Funny how free speech becomes the issue just when the requests come from governments whose ideology don’t align with this particular clown’s. GTFO with the free speech posturing, if you’re defending the free speech of a platform where it’s fine to harass trans people but you’re banned if you correctly call someone cis gendered. Free speech my ass, Twitter is a right wing cess pool, not a beacon of free discourse.
You know that Twitter isn’t banned in Turkiye and India because they complied with their requests for censure,
Yes, and I oppose that.
since you know, those are right wing governments run by strong men
Could be, could be he got fed up with it, idk.
Funny how free speech becomes the issue just when the requests come from governments whose ideology don’t align with this particular clown’s.
Um, no? Free speech was an issue then too. Someone can do good things and bad things. Censoring is bad, refusing to censor even if its just in one case is good.
you’re banned if you correctly call someone cis gendered.
Yes that’s bad
I don’t know what you’re misunderstanding, censorship is bad, its bad when Musk does it, and its really bad when a government does it. Because governments can shoot you and throw you in jail for not complying.
It’s definitely not a good precedent for governments to shut down communication platforms. But free speech is for all, and Twitter censors speech it doesn’t like, mainly left wing opinions. So I’m not going to act like free speech is the main issue here, even if I dislike governments shutting down or blocking platforms.
I’m more alarmed when a government does it, but regardless, yea his motive might not actually be what he claims, it doesn’t really matter though since censorship is still bad
Eh, wrong fang company, I know at least one of them has a chinese specific presence while the main presence is blocked.
You understand Google is banned in China because they wouldn’t accept censure right?
You understand that when people complain about that they argue that the law is bad, they don’t argue that Google should be allowed to ignore the law and keep operating anyway.
I do, just like how VPN companies, Github, etc do
(although github eventually somewhat complied unfortunately)
Sigh. I don’t know why I keep tilting at this windmill but…
A. There’s an appeals process.
The Brazilian Government has never released the details on who they asked Xitter to ban nor why they were banned. They also gagged Xitter so they couldn’t tell anyone either. So what good is an appeals process if you you can’t use it because you don’t know you’ve been banned?
Now Xitter TRIED to use it but…
Musk could have blocked those accounts from being visible in Brazil and then had his legal representative argue that’s compliance.
What you are suggesting is pretty much what Xitter did.
Notice that part about “threatened to arrest our employees”? That’s why Xitter doesn’t have the required “Legal Representative”. This Judge threatened to imprison the last one and pre-emptively froze their bank accounts. This is also why Xitter closed their office in Brazil.
There’s a LOT more going on here than “Elon Bad” but it can’t be discussed because of the volume of utter nonces who incapable of handling nuance.
You’re going to continue tilting at windmills until you actually read your sources too. Musk brazenly told the court he would not do it, twice. There was no attempt to lock those accounts only in Brazil.
Don’t speak out against the mob on here, it’s honestly worse than Reddit. “Censorship of political opponents is bad actually” is an unpopular take on here
Its impossible to step outside of the pure hatred. If you arent saying conservatives need to die then you get downvoted.
No room for discussion. Its a bunch of kids and bots on here i think.
sadly I happen to know the demographics of this site is mostly 25+
Lots of miserable people then.
Idk, not my place to judge
I will judge for you.
No room for discussion
If you arent saying conservatives need to die
Well you sure sound like you’re leaving plenty of room for discussion.
You are saying plenty can be said about conservatives dying? Is that the joke?
I’m saying your comment of
Its impossible to step outside of the pure hatred. If you arent saying conservatives need to die then you get downvoted.
Doesn’t leave room for discussion.
Thats what i said, yes. I dont understand you are trying to say.
What a dumb take.
good to know
