i’m doing it because I want to make the fediverse more friendly place, in hopes of making it more welcoming for new users, and the nicer place in general. But I wonder how much is just less bots.
Reddit is a cesspit, so glad I discovered the fediverse. This guys skits sums up Reddit perfectly.
There is also no karma whore. So even if you say something offending to some, who cares?
I think maybe as well it always became really heated with the Reddit bots when you would express a differing opinion to theirs. There were many times bots would pick a fight and then argue with you like it was their job (because it was). This feels more chill like the early days of Reddit and I hope it stays that way.
you people genuinely think that the bots are the ones having these arguments?
I’m using bot broadly to mean astroturfed actors and influencers. Absolutely there are troll farms on Reddit being paid to push specific agendas.
you’re an idiot lol.
I guess as soon as Lemmy gets properly search indexes and if search engines starts putting weight behind results from Lemmy then commercial interest will arrive?
If a lobby organization thinks they will gain something by buying opinions on Lemmy, then they’ll try to do it?
I’m not sure how you can avoid it, but I hope Lemmy will be better than Reddit. Worst case it’s even easier to manipulate Lemmy since it’s mostly a lot of small instances run for free by people in their spare time.
Also, those upvotes and downvotes don’t mean shit here
And downvotes especially don’t mean anything since they aren’t even enabled on blahaj.zone :)
That’s amazing. Fuck those virtual internet points
Come on, they didn’t mean shit over at The Bad Place either… Sure, there’s extreme examples of accounts racking up crazy amounts of karma, and being able to sell them, but… If you’re not using bots, that still means 99.9% of people didn’t profit in any way from upvotes…
They never did, but here there no persistent score gamifying it.
Good, we don’t need them here so people aren’t afraid to state their opinions.
They didn’t really mean shit on Reddit either except to the high score obsessed and people who intended to sell their account to be used by bots and scammers.
I thought people couldn’t post anymore if they hit negative karma on Reddit. Also, some other aspects of their account are affected, so I’ve heard.
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Yeah, fuck that. I hardly ever go there anymore. Most of my time is here
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Fuck spez. Cheers 🍻
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I was unaware of that if so… I’ve only ever had 2 reddit accounts… One that’s about to be 15 years old and one that’s a year and a half old or so and neither ever had negative karma as a whole…
I don’t really feel like they meant shit on reddit either. As far as I know high karma doesn’t give you any additional benefits but perhaps bragging rights if it’s something one is proud of.
I felt like it made some people feel like elites or something. Some folks took them so seriously that they don’t even reply to anyone. I also felt like karma limited some people’s freedom to express what they felt because they’re afraid of being “downvoted to oblivion”.
I get what you’re saying - that we don’t have a “karma” score associated with our username - but the votes do drive what people see first when they view a particular community or the “front page” so they do matter.
To an extent, but people won’t be put on timeout if they went into negative.
What if I told you they didn’t mean shit over there either?
They certainly did to a lot of people to the point they were afraid to state their opinions so they don’t get downvoted
Edit: I just noticed your username 😂 fucking epic.
This is one thing I’ve been trying to figure out, I keep hearing this a lot. What exactly is different with the upvotes and downvotes? Do they not bury comments and posts or something? Serious question just trying to be informed
At least in the app I’m using there is no cumulative score for your upvotes/downvotes, so people don’t care about it.
Also comments don’t seem to get hidden due to downvotes thankfully. That was always a stupid system.
Tbh I wish that the comment voting system didn’t exist, or that to downvote you had to write a legit reason why, and everyone could see the votes and reasons. Shit reasons would take away your ability to downvote temporarily, extending further the more you do it. Too many people just use it as a disagree button.
Ooh ooh I like that a lot to downvote you must reply.
I think it would almost instantly solve a lot of the issue with the system tbh. Making people not only have to justify their downvotes, but have those justifications be visible means that their bullshit and brigading would be seen and called out/dealt with.
That’s actually another thing I’ve seen here, if you do get brigated there’s a pretty good chance people will come by and balance you back out . And read it once you had a couple people shove you on a box nobody ever saw you to come take you back out.
See, I don’t see a problem with using it as a disagree button, especially since the count is useless on Lemmy. My client (Jerboa) does give a cumulative score, but again, in the absence of The Algorithm™️ it’s just notational. Sometimes a shit take is just a shit take, and it’s not worth fighting with trolls. Downvote and move on.
I will say I 100% agree that I like that the up/down ratio doesn’t auto-hide a comment. It was too easy to manipulate the system on Reddit, and sometimes a (genuinely) unpopular opinion was insightful.
Though. I really would like to know who that one user is that seems to just downvote everything. I think almost everything I’ve seen lately on Lemmy seems to have exactly one downvote. I like to imagine there’s just one super angry dude like NO on everything.
I agree with the dislike button thing. I’m using wefwef so it’s basically an Apollo clone so I can see my cumulative stats so I guess to me they mean something. I guess everywhere has its own system so it’s a side effect of decentralized community.
Edit: removed a word
but… do most people actually care? i stopped caring about my cumulative amount after a specific amount (currently i’m at 319.056 Post-Karma, 91.827 comment karma). its just too much too care anymore for me. if it goes down or up… i don’t really feel it anymore or even care. i think the whole cumulative score of votes isn’t really fullfilling anything purposefull.
how do you feel about such a cumulative score? does it triggers dopamine for you? for me it is “meh”, so i’m interested in how other people experience this.
Doesn’t matter much to me as far as high score type fulfillment fluff but as someone who likes stats and something to reference information about where I’m at is interesting at least and appreciated for the sake of being knowing. I always love video games that had a full stat page on the options like gta
It’s a tale as old as time:
you do something and number go up? Dopamine
you do something and number go down? nopeamine
if you get too much of something fun, it stops being fun after a while. same as with drugs… after a while, the same dosis isn’t having the same high anymore as the first time.
Very true. Moderation and responsible use with drugs is key.
Number go up will never stop feeling good hahaha
The only thing a bunch of karma did was let you join some private subs but they weren’t really all that great usually
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Do you mind naming the forum? I like that idea.
I’ve been on some forums you could recognize people with “You did good, have a number” buttons, but having to justify a “you did poorly” is a great concept to me.
Most of my downvotes here and on Reddit are “irrelevant and basically spam comment”, far more rare here than Reddit. Here I’ve scarcely seen a
“this”
On Reddit, I downvoted 80% of the comments I saw, they were all “this” or “I wish I cud giv u AWARD” or “play stupid games” or vapid bullshit like that. Bonus points for the tenth person to comment the same response to a thread because they didn’t bother to read any comments before screeching their “I AM CLEVER FOR RECOGNISE MY REFERENCE” to the void.
Also comments don’t seem to get hidden due to downvotes thankfully. That was always a stupid system.
i hate this so much about reddit. a lot of users abuse this system so much to hide your comments so nobody sees them anymore… they just vanish because usually users don’t click unhide.
even if you are nice in the comment and are in the right… if someone dislikes your comment they can pull out their twink accounts and downvote it. and if a comment is at around -3 to -4 or similiar, most users just click downvote without actually reading it… because “others have downvoted that comment so it has to be right. downvote click”
its just so toxic on reddit…
Doesn’t even have to be downvoted heavily. If you bash the admins/powermods, your comment gets magically collapsed, even if it’s near the top. I don’t know how that happens.
Yeh I had this happen to my comment once, but it wasn’t even abusing the mods or anything, it was just not the circle jerk reply the mod wanted. It was one of the most upvoted comments on a post, and all of a sudden it was gone from the top. Lo and behold it was now collapsed down the bottom with a huge positive score. Absolute joke.
Some mods basically thought their job amounted to having a power downvote… they’d banish comments they just didn’t agree with, not abusive, but just something they didn’t like and control the conversation that way. That’s one thing if it’s really their sub, but pretty lame if it’s something like /r/Portland and you’re not allowed to disagree with whatever the mods think on a topic, or even discuss other viewpoints.
admins and mods working for reddit (the paid ones) have “tools” to do such things. thats also how /u/spez manipulated user comments who said fuck spez etc. - also how they manipulate /r/place currently. they just paint a huge black square or checkerboard over images they dislike.
Yep, reddit works with upvote and downvote bandwagons. Often (though not always) the first votes on a comment or post determine how the whole thing will go, especially with the self-reinforcing sorting. I noticed what you said about downvotes too, that if someone has an slightly hard to interpret, ambiguous or sarcastic post, once a few people downvoted it, other people will assume it’s a “bad” post and be more likely to down it themselves. Also you can post the same comment on similar threads in the same sub 2 days apart and the results might be wildly different depending on timing, placement, or just who saw it first.
i’m around 12 years on reddit, and votes & how good a post or comments gets welcomed by the communitys on reddit feels kinda random to me.
you can post like you said the same thing at random times, and it will be either welcomed or punished to hell. i had times where i tried to find out if time & timezones have something to do with, but even when trying to post on specific times this didn’t changed much.
after all this years, i decided for myself posting on reddit is like a dice. you roll and either win or fail.
edit: sorry for the horrible english by the way. my motherlanguage isn’t english so i often have still issues with finding the right words for things :/
Ah, very Reddit of you to type a comment eloquently and then apologize for your English!
(I say this in jest! First-language English speakers would use apologies to pad out their fake AITA stories. Also your writing is totally fine!)
It would be nice to not have drive by downvotes, though I don’t always have the energy to explain or reply to someone. About the shit reasons though… how is that determined? Do we have to uh, vote on the reasons too?
Well, I downvoted you because I disagree. Who’s on the committee to decide if this is a shit reason? Also, which committee decided that downvotes are not for disagreement?
Well the rules on Reddit specifically say that the downvote button isn’t a disagree button. Haven’t even looked at the rules on them here tbh, I assume it’s different per instance.
Mods could decide which were shit, but the good thing would be that even if the mods were shit at least everyone could see who was downvoting in bad faith. It would also showcase shitty mods.
Seems people agree with me, given that I’m downvoted with no explanation! Which is extra ironic.
So, care to explain why the downvotes, folks?
- @Synchrome@lemmy.world
- @Whirlybird@aussie.zone
- @Rai@lemmy.dbzer0.com
- @russjr08@outpost.zeuslink.net
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It’s not a disagree button.
Funny, considering you used it like one.
There was a time when Reddit showed not just the sum of upvotes and downvotes, but the counts of both. The best comments were always the ones with hundreds of both up and down.
Then they hid that, and you needed to use RES to resurrect the downvotes. Then they removed the separate downvote count entirely, replacing it with the controversial tag. Problem is that the flag didn’t differentiate between 5/3 (+2) and 5000/4998 (+2).
That was the end of Reddiquette, and the beginning of Reddit’s decline into mediocrity.
Do we know their reasoning behind replacing it with the tag?
They started inflating upvotes for sponsored content, about six years ago? It’s around when /popular/ became a thing. Posts with +1000 suddenly had +7000 or more.
Could an instance on Lemmy go commercial and try to do something similar? Let’s say .world continues to outgrow the others and in a year or two it’s time for them to capitalize on their size.
I guess at some point some instances will go “rogue” in one or more ways and it will be interesting challenges to the fediverse to deal with it.
Honestly I have no idea! Can instances fake numbers like Reddit did? I mean, they could use a bunch of bit accounts to fake upvoting and downvoting I suppose, but it’s all public info here instead of all being hidden.
I wish the system existed as is but was 100% hidden except for the OP.
It’s cool to know that a topic got a hundred thousand upvotes and was the highlight of the day.
But there’s literally no reason to know if someone is currently being brigaded or boosted, it just preempts and primes what judgement they receive. Remove that, and ragedownvotes are gone as people who do it will exercise no power and no influence.
Lemmy already has another improvement: We can see who’s downvoting you. Every downvote is public and comes with names. So if you personally brigaded, you can go to the admin with evidence and those people will get their vote rights removed, or will get outright banned. But I still think that’s not enough. The “this person has a bad score, I’ll downvote then” is bad and should really not be a thing, I wish we just removed it.
The chapo fork just got rid of downvotes entirely
I like up vote only.
Comments weren’t originally hidden due to downvotes on Reddit either… That’s a relatively recent change and it sucks.
I don’t really take issue with downvotes being used as a disagree button as a general rule but I can also see room to improve the system someho, too.
Wait, posts showed both upvote and downvote rates at one point and they didn’t collapse by default if they got too many downvotes until recently?
They never showed both total up and downvotes individually like some Lemmy clients do… Only the sum of the two.
But, they didn’t used to collapse regardless of the sum going negative.
As long as they never add any “punishment” for being downvotes then I guess it doesn’t matter. On Reddit downvotes we’re used to reinforce the echo chamber and to essentially silence differing opinions.
While third party apps do track total up votes there is no “karma”. So unlike Reddit having 60bajilliondie points means nothing to anyone but you. Don’t even think I can see someone else’s points.
You could with certain apps… Someone shared someone else’s tally in comments on a post yesterday… Can’t remember which app it was though.
Voyager is one I assume, because I can see your scores on your user page.
GTK…
I’ve only played with it a tiny tiny bit so far
When I click your name, Voyager shows me you have 415 comment points.
It fluctuates. I’m back on 18 according to Connect. It’s not reliabke enough to be used fir a karma system, which is good imho.
Sorta yeah. Comments seem to mostly be sorted by new to old. Upvotes do matter… But not as much as ‘Boosting’ does to push content to your frontpage.
Why everyone just doesn’t hit boost is beyond me but eh. It feels like boost is meant for those especially relevant and nice posts you definitely want others to see vs casually clicking.
New is definitely the default comment sort that I’ve seen at least using Jerboa with lemmy.world…
I’ve never seen this boost option you’re talking about though…
I see now that you’re on kbin so I wonder if that option only exists there.
I believe Boost is a Kbin thing.
From my new user experience it seems like active comments get placed higher regardless of upvoted. i.e. comments that are still being commented on or new ones.
I like that system actually. Sometimes an unpopular opinion on Reddit would get downvoted and buried but it sparked an interesting discussion where the rest of the thread would be quality content. I like seeing some heavily downvoted comments sometimes and hiding that isn’t necessary. I feel like the user should have control over what way they get their feed and how upvotes and downvotes effect that.
There’s sort options for comment order.
Mods are certainly nicer, that’s for sure, and thus far, except in in ugly instances, everyone here has been intelligent and thoughtful, even in disagreement.
I think that federation here really helps - seems like the toxicity seems naturally get siloed as instances defederate from bad actors and users are blocked, and it really dilutes the impact a power-tripping mod can have on content, as it’s far to easy to find another relevant community or instance that will accept your post.
One thing that has concerned me a little is Reddit moderators that want to own the same community here on Lemmy, like genuinely feeling that it’s theirs.
In generalI I thought that was something I wanted to get away from, but I guess I also don’t know what it takes to “grow” a community into something through moderation.
I upvote for general encouragement. But I upvoted this especially to be nice to you, OP. I also gave you a lil boost.
Thank you, and same to you with my upvote.
Just wanted to say that I upvoted to be especially nice to you for being nice, Janet. Have a good day!
That’s not a shower thought you braindead, try hard, complete waste of a human… Get off of here; there’s no room for idiots here. Reported.
JK, just thought I’d channel my inner rage-commenter for old times sake. Welcome 😄
Have the upboot because I think you’re handsome and cool.
Well Karma ain’t a thing here so there’s not that much reason for bots to exist. Where on Reddit people make certain karma bots to sell. So here! Have a updoot. 👍
Thanks for the upvote, and back at you. I’m thinking bots would be used to change discourse for whatever purposes.
This comment was downvoted. This action was performed manually.
Have you talked to the Atheists on here? Cantankerous bunch. They’ve been in their little bubble for so long they get triggered by the slightest perceived critique of capitalist materialism.
Man have you talked to the Tankies? They attack you even if you try to promote the idea of Socialism (while applying flawless historical materialism). Some people just value circle jerking higher than the exchange of ideas.
Disagreeing with someone and still acknowledging the other perspective as ‘correct from their perspective’ just isn’t something that that online communities can foster that easy. It requires effort and imo a kinda ‘small’ number of users.
This just happened to me. Even tried to use Albert Einstein as a “see, Socialism can work” even though the topic was about tankies specifically. It felt like gaslighting so I stopped engaging.
As a general rule I have rarely interacted with other self-professed atheists that are specifically pro-capitalism. I’m going to have to go scroll through the community here, and see that for myself because I’m having a hard time squaring that in my head.
Wait. What does atheism have to do with capitalist materialism?
How does my belief, or non belief, in god affect my lust for a Playstation 5.
Atheism is the religion of materialism, which is the philosophy of capitalism. People who idolize power, technology, and industry worship a mechanical universe, but they get mad when you point it out.
Or, they’re getting mad at you because they hate power and money, and you’re claiming they idolize it.
Atheism is materialism is capitalism. They don’t just idolize money, it’s the basic unit of their reality.
I honestly have no idea what this means and I’m super confused by this comment.
I was pretty religious for decades (Christianity) and things like money and power were all up in there. In theory, it wasn’t supposed to be, but it absolutely was.
Christianity is a religion which serves power, not God. Materialism and Atheism are the ignorant beliefs that nothing exists that cannot be measured or known, cooked up by beings which have a such a narrow field of perspective that they can’t perceive a tenth of their surroundings, even with scientific instruments.
Well, all I can really do is speak for my experience.
I’m a big fan of the New Testament’s teachings on loving your fellow humans, not judging others, forgiving others, and treating people the way you’d like to be treated. That said, there were a lot of people in my churches / fellowships that claimed to care about that stuff, but got so caught up in the other dogma that they ended loosing site of JC’s main teachings.
My motivations for non-belief are not driven by idolizing money or material things. I’m kind of a hippy and I distain people that overvalue that stuff. I simply of the belief that I don’t need to understand the afterlife in order to be a kind an empathetic human being. Life is hard, and since most of us have experienced hardship, we know what it’s like when other’s are suffering hardship. So we should try our best to love each other and help each other out.
I take offense to people judging me as a materialistic capitalist without taking the time to get to know me. I’m not happy with people that hoard wealth, I hate materialism, and I’ve spend the last decade volunteering my Saturday and Sunday working in recovery clinics to help my fellow man… because life is hard, and sometimes you need someone to help you out without casting judgment.
I don’t think they’re against atheism. It’s just the stereotype that online atheist communities tend to be insufferable, and, I’ll say it, holier than thou.
I think it’s a night and day difference, I can actually post stuff here without getting attacked over some triviality.
I believe its mostly a product of the much smaller community. I think more negativity may creep in as popularity increases.
Anyway, yeah, have an upvote.
I feel the same. I wasn’t worrried about this post getting tons of downvotes for no reason, but I would have avoided posting it on reddit.
omg omg two spaces after a “.” unacceptable. My disapointment is immesurable and quite frankly my day is ruined. /s (I know that it can be old-school formality, and honestly I don’t really care, just jokin’)
Fix your run-on sentence, yo
Triviality :)
Nah, the main internet hive minds still exist.
I’m frequently downvoted for saying anything positive about my Tesla.
playing victim is something a tesla driver would do tbh.
I think your comment is a perfect example of the issue. In just a small sentence you
-
stereotyped OP and put him in a group “all Tesla owners plays victim”,
-
used ad hominem attack on the person claiming that they were a Tesla driver victim and use that as a character rebuttal instead of arguing against their hive mind statement,
-
general dismissal by accusing them of playing a victim so you could ignore their experience and contribution.
Why?
New account, that’s the first comment, so I’m writing off as a troll.
Yeah, that was the joke. I also upvoted the comment.
-
I was tempted to down vote you because you have a tesla…but I refrained because this post is about being nice.
(Seriously congratulations for caring about your carbon footprint.)
I will say it’s good that:
- You are normalizing electric cars for other drivers who see you on the road and for your family, friends, and neighbors
- You are not using gas
- You are saving money on fuel
That was a dose of niceness for this thread :)
I have a neighbor who has a Tesla and I legit feel bad for him for the scorn he is probably having to deal with in his circle (he bought it pre Twitter Musk and he works in politics on the left).
Yeah, see, I bought my Tesla when Elon was the “cool guy” on the internet. But I didn’t buy my car because of Elon, I bought it because it’s got the best charging network of all EVs.
I have solar panels on my roof, I have a second EV (F150 Lightning), so I make my own fuel for my vehicles. I’m doing more than the average person for the environment and saving money at the same time. But I say that one of the vehicles is a Tesla and the reeeeeeing starts. It’s stupid
This is not an uncontrolled anger thread. Everyone under me please release all your rage
I think it’s also easier to moderate right now. The communities aren’t massive and there isn’t a torrent of assholes that mods struggle to keep up with.
