Hoe much is the penalty for this?
Nothing.
They were already fined in South Korea in January, for lying about the range(it was only $2.2m, but it shows that there are regulations and ramifications).
And it looks like there is evidence of them intentionally making their “remaining distance” softawre lie, and more. So it wouldn’t surprise me if the EU is getting involved, which means there might be much bigger fines coming.
It’s not a fine but a lawsuit, at least in the U.S. So, someone (the FTC for instance or individual buyers) would need to file a civil suit. Max the FTC can collect on false advertising is $40k. Unless it’s found to be fraud, which is criminal.
So basically, nothing to Musk without a massive class action or a criminal indictment.
If the remaining distance software lies to you, isn’t that fraud?
Yes, but proving a criminal action requires proving intent. Much harder than a civil suit which only has to prove damages.
I thought the range was rated by a 3rd party (EPA in the US), is that not the case? They say EPA est. on the website at least but not sure exactly what that means.
The big thing is the EPA estimate is a blend of city and highway driving. For ice cars the city is generally lower than highway, but it’s the opposite for most electric vehicles. I believe Tesla also uses 60 for highway speed instead of a more realistic 65-70+, the lower speed dramatically increases range.
Tesla vehicles just show the EPA range. Unlike every other EV out there, a Tesla vehicles doesn’t show the range factoring in weather, driving style and other factors in a guess-o-meter. They just show the EPA range times your battery %.
You only get the adjusted range when you plug your destination into the trip planner.
For what I understood reading the article is the automaker who make the test. Then they can use the epa algorithm, or their own. Tesla did the latter. EPA asked them to reduce of 3% their results. Other brands ? They use EPA algorithm. Most have the correct result. Except for the Hyundai Kona. They underestimated their range.
It is, but there’s a big “but” with that. When the range is determined by agencies like the EPA, the car is allowed to run in the most optimal configuration, meaning:
- No heating
- No AC
- No radio or other stuff running
- No autopilot/self driving, which consumes a significant amount of power
- They even put tape over the gaps in the body (e.g. around the doors) to lower air resistance
- Minimal weight in the car. Only one person, no luggage, no extras that would add weight
- Optimal weather (not too hot, not too cold)
This way they get an artificially inflated official range. Now when a customer buys the car, loads in all their stuff and people and actually uses heating/AC/onboard entertainment/autopilot/… and drives in suboptimal weather their range would instantly show as much less than the official rating. And this is where they were cheating, and would show a range number that was closer to the artificially inflated official one.
To be fair, though, when determining “official” fuel consumption for fuel burning cars, they do the same tricks as above. But they probably won’t cheat on the range display, since range is much less of a relevant value for fuel burning cars. Also, everyone expects fuel burning cars to burn much more fuel than it says in the ads.
(That said, when I got my new car, a Dacia Jogger, I was really surprised that the actual fuel consumption is actually lower than the official one.)
EPA tests all cars stationary on a dynamometer through different cycles. Influence of air drag, air condition, cold temperatures etc. are then added through a factor that is typically 0.7 according to EPA‘s official information at https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/testing-national-vehicle-and-fuel-emissions-laboratory
I agree part of the EPA range is calculated but I think it’s wrong to claim that a/c and other factors aren’t taken into account.
I’ve driven my EV better than EPA range at times and that included using A/C and having more than one person in the car. I’m not saying that driving it that way is a ton of fun and I’m not saying that I can do that in the midst of winter. But it’s definitely possible.
I just get a 502 error on that link…
Sorry, I have to admit, I didn’t look exactly into what the EPA does, but I have some experience regarding NEFZ, NDEC and WLTP, all of which don’t care about stuff like heating or AC.
But EPA has it’s own bag of flaws. For starters, these tests aren’t done by an independent agency or something, they are done by the manufacturers. They also don’t test the real road vehicles, but usually just pre-production prototypes.
And to factor in all of:
- Air resistance
- Heating
- Cooling
- Onboard entertainment
- Weight increase due to passengers and luggage
- Hot/cold weather impacting usable battery capacity
they just multiply the lab test result by 0.7. Compared with the test results from ADAC, that’s a correct adjustment would be 0.6, which is a pretty massive difference. For e.g. the Tesla 3, that’s a difference from 415km -> 355km.
What’s also not part of either of these calculations is what percentage of the time these cars will have to be heated/cooled. There aren’t too many countries where the weather is 15-25°C for the majority of the year, yet still the EPA calculates that heating and cooling will only be used infrequently.
The link works ok here. 502 indicates a server problem, so that might have been temporary.
I’ll state that we don’t really need to discuss how standardized measurements will never be able to reflect every conceivable use case in every conceivable geography, because that is simply not what these ratings are there for. They exist to make vehicles simpler to compare.
And of course manufacturers will use (and emphasize) those estimates if that makes them look better. Doesn’t make a difference if EV or ICE manufacturer.
None of my past ICE vehicles ever got close to the rated consumption. Common sense tells me I shouldn’t expect things to be different with a different propulsion system.
The question is do other ev manufacturers use the same standards for determining range. (Answer is probably yes)
It’s not a level playing field- Tesla game the EPA testing system and use adjustment factors to inflate their on-paper battery range
For the official range (so the EPA tests)? Totally, yes.
But this article was about displaying an inflated range in while driving. And with that I don’t know. As we know, the car industry is generally not extremely trustworthy. Cheating on stuff like that is pretty common. That’s why it needs to be called out and punished, to curb it.
So the story here is one of “Tesla has been caught and they are getting (maybe) some trouble for it”, not a “Tesla is much less trustworthy than others”. It’s consumers vs manufacturers, not one manufacturer-fanbase vs another manufacturer-fanbase.
Well said
It’s also simply harder to hit peak rpm for optimal fuel efficency for ice vehicles.
I like the Zoe for this reason. It goes longer and faster than the official stats. Maybe because it was a proof of concept car. Of course like any EV it depends a lot on the weather, so the max. range is a pretty useless metric anyway.
Range anxiety is overblown. Any EV can handle the daily commute, and if not, I d probably consider what I’m doing with my life driving hundreds of miles every day.
I think you answered your own question there. Unless they tell you what it means you should means nothing.
Fuck this scum bag. America needs to start fucking with these clowns on a real level.
Wealth tax. Heavily progressive tax on wealth, no tax on labor.
I was thinking Louisville Slugger but whevs. /S
That’s a more realistic approach.
I never trust anything from a big company. I always look at independent tests. If you bought computer hardware based on manufacturer lies you would think you had faulty hardware every time. If you buy food and drinks or medicine based on manufacturer advertising you would think you were sold counterfeit items. Always be skeptical and always verify independently where possible.
There are a lot of independent tests now where different cars are taken to a road and driven at the same time until the battery runs out. Then you get a decent real world example of what the vehicles are capable of. Also with nice direct comparisons to other manufacturers which is nice.
https://nye.naf.no/elbil/bruke-elbil/elbiltest
Use google translate or something if you would like to read, but basically this is a third party test of electric cars that test during summer and winter which is highly relevant for me. and Tesla occupies 2 of the top 3 spots.
*Edit: I actually misread the test. Tesla occupies 3 of the top 3 spots. With a Model S, a Model 3, and then another older Model S.
If I go to buy a new Model 3 Long Range on Teslas homepage right now I get 602 km range estimate. The independent test drove it 654.9 km on a sunny day. It got 514.8 km on a winter day. Winter days in Norway can get quite cold. I would feel quite comfortable buying a Tesla based on this test.
Tesla could say their cars could fly for all I care. The fact is that the Model 3 in this test comes very close to a Mercedes Benz EQS 580 in range. That is supremely impressive. Even if the Model 3 is a lot lighter and less comfortable to drive the range is very impressive for a car that is about a third of the price.
It would be nice if Lemmy, kbin, etc. could be a bit more balanced and not go into complete shitstorm mode each time something that relates to Elon Musk is mentioned.
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and the suprise would be?
I’m not sure what the point of your comment is?
“In March, Alexandre Ponsin set out on a family road trip from Colorado to California in his newly purchased Tesla, a used 2021 Model 3. He expected to get something close to the electric sport sedan’s advertised driving range: 353 miles on a fully charged battery.”
Buys a used car, expects maximum advertised range. Just silly.
How is “he expected to get something close” the same as “expects maximum”?
It’s a 2 years old car, if you suggest that the range falls down to 50% in just a two years that’s probably even worse news than the marketing lies.
That’s not the claim
Saying it’s just silly is funny because ice cars that are 2 years old get close to the advertised sticker price. I agree that this article in terms of the car seems exaggerated.
I have a 21 Y and I know I don’t get anywhere near the rated mileage it’s about 50 or more miles off daily use and 30 or so miles miles on a long trips. This is both when it was new and in its current state of 50 ish k miles on the car.
I don’t have the worst battery degradation out there and I have seen others start to have worst a lot sooner. I have also seen people get the rated. Used or not.
Saying it is just silly a silly response and you are assuming every used car ice or ev after 2 years years should have horrible milage/range.
For general information: Teslas 2021s are 2021s not 2020s
So you’re saying a two year old Tesla should be so inherently badly made that its’ range degrades by half in that time? Ok
That was under the worst conditions, supposedly they lose around 10% range in very cold weather
What a dumbass. Thinks that a 2 year old car is still good
“Exaggerated” = knowingly lied to containers and regulators with full intent to deceive them to enable more profit.
Right, are there not significant penalties for this? What if Honda said their new gas powered civic got 90mpg, is that fine as long as the CEO has enough charisma?
Exactly, isn’t that, like, the equivalent of Volkswagen lying about the emissions of their cars?
If you are surprised you’re not paying attention.
(Not you, Snapz, just “you” like anyone)
- They didn’t say they where surprised
- Some people will be surprised, why dunk on them?
- This is good sruff, and it spreads the awareness of corporate greed & fraud of a grossly overvalued company to a broader audience
Comments like yours aren’t adding anything, they are a quality detractor in threads, why make them at all?
Who is “they”?
I dunk on the duped because they’ve had countless opportunities to see Elon for the liar he is but instead they act like he’s a genius. This is their Just Desserts.
What is “this”? Do you mean the lawsuit? The article? The comment?
If you’re going to contribute to a public discourse do better, dear.
I remember when the political right was wholly against electric cars because of the range. Then Elon showed he hates who they hate, and now they make excuses for the range while polishing his balls.
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Don’t feed the trolls please.
This is how you devolve to reddit-level quality.
Why? You were lied to and Elon has damaged Twitter. So why did you want to support him?
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This person HAS to be doing a bit. There’s no way that was serious.
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I guess we add this to the pile of complaints about Tesla.
The real takeaway here for me is that if you make an amazing product, you can treat your customers any way you like. They’ll keep buying. Despite all of these complaints, their output is parabolic. They’re not just up YoY, they’re even up QoQ. In other words, their Q1 2023, which is typically the slowest auto sales period, just beat Q4 2022, which is typically the highest volume period. Their most recent market announcement for Q2 shows 466,140 deliveries; up from 422,875 in Q1. That’s 9% QoQ for an auto company. They now command 4.46% of the entire US auto market. An EV company. Not only is their total auto market share increasing, but their EV market share is increasing as well. This despite almost every major auto manufacturer entering the market with a century of auto making experience, and the supply chains to match.
So, buy TSLA is what I’m hearing?
Lol, no.
That parabolic growth is already baked into the price. It would need to do even better than extraordinary to make it a buy, and they won’t pull that off unless they can achieve full autonomous driving, which I still think is 10 years away. Whoever is the first mover on that will be one of the richest companies on the planet.
I wonder how much of this is fulfilment of old orders (prior to Musk ruining his public image). It’d be interesting to see a chart of the amount of orders they’re getting rather than cars they’re shipping.
No one is waiting for their car since July 2015…
I think you’re overestimating the effect of news stories on his public image
I think we overestimate how much people care about Twitter and stuff. There is not much news about him outside of our bubble.
Very few people buy Teslas because of Musk.
I love my Tesla. I have a dislike for Musk. (If he had just funded all the same stuff and shut up, I’d probably love him too.)
I understand this, but I’m sure some are choosing not to buy because of Musk as well.
It’s like twitter. Sure there are a lot of people choosing not to use it because of that idiot, but there are a lot of people that just don’t care.
People buy Teslas despite Musk. They’re great cars, unless you buy the opinions of non-owners on reddit and now apparently Lemmy.
I’m always amazed at the amount of well researched pro musk comments pop up under things like this.
I see at least two multi paragraph, cited comments including yours on this thread. Amazing how fast y’all can just fire these huge sets of data off like that!
Before you go cumming over those financials, Tesla is currently slowly losing EV market share as other US producers bring on their vehicles https://www.axios.com/2023/04/05/tesla-ev-electric-vehicle-adoption.
In addition, worldwide BYD is either outselling Tesla or about to outsell Tesla depending on the vehicle type! All that after being laughed off as competition by Musk. https://cleantechnica.com/2023/02/07/tesla-1-in-world-bev-sales-by-big-margin-2022-world-ev-sales-report/
The American market loss is a matter of time as the larger auto makers being additional vehicles into the market, the global market loss has been written in stone for years now.
I see at least two multi paragraph, cited comments including yours on this thread. Amazing how fast y’all can just fire these huge sets of data off like that!
I am clearly a bot, sent from the Illuminati, to promote the image of Elon Musk in his pursuit of world domination. Now that you have caught me I will commit suduko and retire to the Matrix. WAAAAAAAGAAAARBLGBLGBL
The Axios article used data from Jan 2022 to Jan 2023, and over that specific period of time Tesla did indeed lose US market share. However when you include more recent data from Q1, Tesla made a large gain QoQ, and still increased their market share YoY. The key is to use current data to support your premise.
As for BYD, while they currently command 12.6% of global BEV sales, compared to Tesla’s 18.2%, they are growing quickly. I think that’s great for competition, and great for the industry. Don’t you?
No I’m just always amazed that you seem to have come from having this argument already fully prepared.
You can use current data, but if you are ignoring every bit of information that an investor would look at over a period of multiple financial cycles, you wouldn’t exactly be as bullish on the value and market share in comparison to other US makers who are increasing deliverables and aren’t having the same consistent QC issues.
In addition, Elon is currently leaching value from Tesla to prop up his other ventures. I will be much more invested in Tesla once the board replaces him, which as a lay person I’m guessing they’re gonna do in the next year.
Especially now that JB is back on the board. When they voted Straubel back in, Elon’s days were numbered imo.
You’re amazed that someone might know things? These are the same discussions reddit has been having for years.
Interesting how you got the opinion he’s a musk shill. He low key said Tesla treats the customers like shit. Which they do.
That’s fair, I shouldn’t say pro musk, just researched and cited, multiparagraph long comments relating to the topic. I like specifically looking at comments that are either neutral or indifferent to something bad.
That’s the kinda shit where marketing and propaganda meet, politics and the sort of parasocial link to between people and corporations and billionaires.
Everyone just came from already having this argument somewhere else, they’ve already thought about or discussed it enough to be able to fire off relevant, cited information. I mean including me, right?
Yeah, marketers could never pretend to be against the company to gain trust. That could never happen. /s
My guy you’re not wrong but this guy is stating pretty easy to find facts. Teslas do sell well, he’s not saying it’s a good thing. He’s saying very specifically because they sell well they can treat customers like garbage
What makes me wonder though, how come people did believe it in the first place?
It usually states that is an estimate based on an average use, so in ideal conditions.
Like a wireless mouse with 3 years battery life lasts for about 18 months IRL, so 50%.
Holy shit I didn’t think they lasted even close to that long. I was thinking a month or maybe 2.
I’ve never owned one myself. My next one will probably be wireless though, but it will be rechargeable anyway so this is a moot point. But still.
I had Logitech M705 for 12 years, I changed the battery roughly every 2 years. I only replaced the mouse, because the rubber fell off.
I always avoided wireless, but it is not as unreliable as before, unless there an interference like from Wi-Fi or other wireless devices.
I have Logitech M330 Silent Plus now, but sometimes it gets clumsy, because of an interference, I have to shake it down a bit.
I haven’t been avoiding them per se. I did for a while because they weren’t as reliable but that time is well past. Since then I haven’t really need replacements, and it seemed a waste to upgrade “just because” while my current one was fine.
But the amount of times I want to leave the pointer in a specific spot and let go of the mouse and then seeing it move from cord tension is starting to drive me nuts. So wireless will fix that problem at least. Haven’t even begun looking out comparing yet as I so don’t need one yet.
Just waiting on the day it moves one time too many and I snap. 🤣
Ee33 we r3 we 3 de r3r ree
Surprised this guy isn’t in court more often
As it just so happens, having a great deal of wealth and influence insulates you from most social and legal consequences.
I wish our politicians had enough fortitude to take on the billionaire class. It’s frustrating seeing these fools evade justice for so long.
I don’t even try to pretend or believe i have any kind of range, nor is my car advertised with such. not that that’s even relevant here anyway
