The world needs to recognise PALESTINIANS as legitimate but not Hamas.
Hamas has invaded the open wound which is Gaza, and promotes evil toxicity rather than healing.
In 94 we (royal) almost had peace. In '93 The Oslo accords promised Palestinians self governance in 5 years. Israel under Rabin and Abbas with the PLO had an agreement for Palestine to be run by the PA in the mean time and work towards peace.
Rabin along with either Abbas or Arafat (can’t remember) even pulled Israeli troops out of occupied Palestine and gave land back as part of the peace agreement, marking the most significant step towards peace we will see.
But then Rabin was assassinated in 95 by a zionist. Israel turns over to Netanyahu. Netanyahu refuses to meet with Arafat.
Oslo II fell apart as the US refused to recognize Hamas (who had popular support), preferring the secular Fatah (PA). Whats the point in holding an election if it wont be recognized anyways? Hamas doesn’t enter the '96 race.
At some point Netanyahu starts funding Hamas knowing that he can also pit Hamas against the Fatah. Netanyahu will fund Hamas on multiple occasions throughout the 90’s and 2000’s.
In '97 the US declares Hamas a terrorist group, ending any chance of an election that satisfies the people.
Rabin was a well respected politician and former military hero, the Israeli public trusted him and would have made peace. Once he was assassinated that radical upstart Netanyahu gained more prominance and slow walked the peace process over a cliff.
Saying Rabin was assassinated by a Zionist is very unfair. Especially since Rabin was one of the biggest Zionist leaders since ever. Yigal Amir (Rabin’s killer) is a Kahanist terrorist. And while self identifying as a Zionist, he probably also opposes most major Zionist leaders across history, from Ben Gurion to Rabin. It’s similar to saying a KKK hate crime was commited by Wstern American patriots.
Anyway after the murder, Israel had made very serious attempts at peace.
Hebron treaty
Wye and Sharem memorandums
Camp David talks
Aqaba, the Geneba Initiative
Sharem a-Sheikh summit
The unilateral disengagement and freeing of Gaza from Israeli occupation
Olmert - Abbas talks
The Annapolis Conference
The 2010 peace talks
The 2013-2014 peace talks
Some of those were very extensive and Israel made large concessions in the negotiations. Most of the serious attemts were ended by the Palestinians. There’s a saying in israel “The Palestinians never miss the opportunity to miss an opportunity for peace”. Today the Palestinian Authority (PA) has very little legitimacy within the Palestinian population, and arguably don’t represent the Palestinian people. It’s not cut and dry since there hadn’t been any elections in decades, but the sentiment for Hamas and other Palestinian factions and against the PA is very clear.
article 13, “There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”[6]
Must be fun to negotiate with a party for peace, who declared in their charter that all this is “a waste of time and vain endeavors”, alongside genocidal racist fantasies.
Israel politics has it’s own “gems”, but I find the Hamas hard to top. These aren’t accidents, this is all intentional. They don’t want peace.
If I moved into your house without permission and told you I’ll bomb the shit out of you if you look at me funny you wouldn’t accept it right away either.
Which is the core reason why there is no peaceful solution.
Israel was founded as a Jewish ethnostate. Imagine if the same was done but it was a white ethnostate. Who would be the first to move there?
White nationalists who want a pure white ethnostate, that’s who. That’s what happened in Israel. Those who wanted àto separate themselves from ‘the other’. It’s why there is such a strong radical ethnic based faction of Jews in Israel whose views aren’t reflected in most of the Jewish populations elsewhere.
Conversely, those who haven’t found a way to flee Gaza over the decades are more likely to believe that they, as an ethnicity, are the rightful owners of the various holy sites and land in the area and the only solution is the removal or subjegation of the Jewish people from the region.
With both sides having significant and loud sections of their populations calling for the destruction of the other, how can peace ever happen?
I appreciate the clarification. I posted the same comment in another thread and got some good feedback there too. It was this thread.
I think “terrorist” is a loaded word and I wanted to understand the context because I’m very familiar with the US’s history of using the word “terrorist” as a cudgel.
And our history of inserting ourselves, refusing to work with the local democratically elected government, setting up our own candidate in the race and… uh sometimes assassinating the opposition if it looks like the plant isn’t going to win. (see Jacobo Arbenz, Mohammad Mosaddeq, Salvador Allende, if you want more listen to “same thing” by Flobots but make sure to verify things after)
But my goal isn’t to say Hamas good Israel bad (although I very much laid it all on Netanyahu). My goal was to see if I could absolve Hamas of the “terrorist” label from the US. Without that label it’s a lot easier to see the true story of Palestine.
But in the interest of staying focused on how this is a problem with Netanyahu and not the Israeli people I wanna say there were several peace talks brought to my attention (several or most involving Bibi) in the thread that I still need to dig into. And I do intend to keep reading so I can speak more accurately on the topic.
My goal was to see if I could absolve Hamas of the “terrorist” label from the US
Nope, you can’t. On the other side of things you can’t absolve Kahanites of the same label, Hamas and Kahanites both employ terrorism as a tactic, both are fascist, and both are genocidal. OTOH I wouldn’t go so far and extend those label to all of religious Zionism, in the same sense that there’s a rather large difference between Mormons and the Ku Klux Klan.
As to Netanyahu: I rather see him as what we call in Germany a stirrup holder: He’s right-wing, no doubt, but primarily he’s interested in power because it allows him to be corrupt without facing prison, if another approach would fulfil his goals he’d drop Otzma Yehudit without second thought. He’s basically a more coherent, more strategic, less impulse-driven, Trump, but as blind to the dangers of fascism and the ways they achieve power as too fucking many other people.
Maybe I’m explaining myself poorly, maybe you disagree. To clarify to anyone still reading I am not trying to absolve anyone of murder. Hamas did commit terrorism as defined in the dictionary.
But should the US be the entity in charge of making that distinction? Has the US ever used that designation inappropriately?
As an American I think Americans are particularly brainwashed about the term after the War on Terror and tying the word so heavily to racism. Terrorists are monsters but that rhetoric allowed us to dehumanize anyone accused of being a terrorist to horrific levels.
It is my belief that many of us realize we were manipulated by the rhetoric of War on Terror but find it a lot harder to look back before the War on Terror with the same clarity.
You mean a Zionist made Israel great again while cultivating the “victim” mentality of Jews in his country to a degree where (predominantly female) German tourists are openly cornered and asked how they personally would make up for “their” atrocities while those atrocities happened 2 generations ago?
It’s possible to blame both. There’s nothing in the comment you’re responding to saying Israel is not a terror state or that they’re not to blame for things going to shit.
You can absolutely blame Hamas for their actions. And you can blame Israel for Hamas. Responding to completely fair criticism of Hamas by whining that Israel is worse is just whataboutism. They are both terror organizations at this point.
It’s not whataboutism, it’s identifying the root cause of the conflict. They’re absolutely both terror organizations, but criticizing one without criticizing the other equally is taking a clear side.
There is no Hamas without Israel. There is no discussion of one side without discussion of the other, unless you were trying to create an asymmetrical dialogue.
Revolutionary militant groups don’t spawn where material conditions are being met. If every Palestinian was “middle class,” Hamas would have never flourished. Which tells you everything about who is to blame.
To add to this and as I wrote somewhere else, the Israeli State has for so long made life so hard for Palestinians, especially in the Gaza strip, that there are now tens of thousands of Palestinians with so little to lose that joining an organisation internationally seen as a terrorist organisation is still a step-up from that.
Reminds me of the parable “the more you squeeze the more sand dissapears between your fingers”.
The world needs to recognise PALESTINIANS as legitimate but not Hamas. Hamas has invaded the open wound which is Gaza, and promotes evil toxicity rather than healing.
Israel is responsible for far more death than Hamas, yet you blame Hamas. This open wound you speak of, it’s maintained and exacerbated by the IDF.
Remember when we almost had peace in '94 and then a Zionist fucked it all up?
Wait I don’t know about that.
Copied from myself elsewhere:
In 94 we (royal) almost had peace. In '93 The Oslo accords promised Palestinians self governance in 5 years. Israel under Rabin and Abbas with the PLO had an agreement for Palestine to be run by the PA in the mean time and work towards peace.
Rabin along with either Abbas or Arafat (can’t remember) even pulled Israeli troops out of occupied Palestine and gave land back as part of the peace agreement, marking the most significant step towards peace we will see.
But then Rabin was assassinated in 95 by a zionist. Israel turns over to Netanyahu. Netanyahu refuses to meet with Arafat.
Oslo II fell apart as the US refused to recognize Hamas (who had popular support), preferring the secular Fatah (PA). Whats the point in holding an election if it wont be recognized anyways? Hamas doesn’t enter the '96 race.
At some point Netanyahu starts funding Hamas knowing that he can also pit Hamas against the Fatah. Netanyahu will fund Hamas on multiple occasions throughout the 90’s and 2000’s.
In '97 the US declares Hamas a terrorist group, ending any chance of an election that satisfies the people.
Hamas wins the '06 election
So that’s why the Oslo accords stalled. That’s horrible.
Yeah there might be more to it but I’m pretty sure that assassination fucked up peace for the last 20 years.
Here’s one of the sources I used to come to my conclusion, it can give a more detailed explanation of the breakdown https://www.britannica.com/topic/Oslo-Accords#ref360514
Rabin was a well respected politician and former military hero, the Israeli public trusted him and would have made peace. Once he was assassinated that radical upstart Netanyahu gained more prominance and slow walked the peace process over a cliff.
Saying Rabin was assassinated by a Zionist is very unfair. Especially since Rabin was one of the biggest Zionist leaders since ever. Yigal Amir (Rabin’s killer) is a Kahanist terrorist. And while self identifying as a Zionist, he probably also opposes most major Zionist leaders across history, from Ben Gurion to Rabin. It’s similar to saying a KKK hate crime was commited by Wstern American patriots.
Anyway after the murder, Israel had made very serious attempts at peace.
Some of those were very extensive and Israel made large concessions in the negotiations. Most of the serious attemts were ended by the Palestinians. There’s a saying in israel “The Palestinians never miss the opportunity to miss an opportunity for peace”. Today the Palestinian Authority (PA) has very little legitimacy within the Palestinian population, and arguably don’t represent the Palestinian people. It’s not cut and dry since there hadn’t been any elections in decades, but the sentiment for Hamas and other Palestinian factions and against the PA is very clear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
Must be fun to negotiate with a party for peace, who declared in their charter that all this is “a waste of time and vain endeavors”, alongside genocidal racist fantasies.
Israel politics has it’s own “gems”, but I find the Hamas hard to top. These aren’t accidents, this is all intentional. They don’t want peace.
If I moved into your house without permission and told you I’ll bomb the shit out of you if you look at me funny you wouldn’t accept it right away either.
Which is the core reason why there is no peaceful solution.
Israel was founded as a Jewish ethnostate. Imagine if the same was done but it was a white ethnostate. Who would be the first to move there?
White nationalists who want a pure white ethnostate, that’s who. That’s what happened in Israel. Those who wanted àto separate themselves from ‘the other’. It’s why there is such a strong radical ethnic based faction of Jews in Israel whose views aren’t reflected in most of the Jewish populations elsewhere.
Conversely, those who haven’t found a way to flee Gaza over the decades are more likely to believe that they, as an ethnicity, are the rightful owners of the various holy sites and land in the area and the only solution is the removal or subjegation of the Jewish people from the region.
With both sides having significant and loud sections of their populations calling for the destruction of the other, how can peace ever happen?
Argh. Yigal Amir was and is a Religious Zionist, Rabin himself was a Labour Zionist.
I appreciate the clarification.
I posted the same comment in another thread and got some good feedback there too.It was this thread.I think “terrorist” is a loaded word and I wanted to understand the context because I’m very familiar with the US’s history of using the word “terrorist” as a cudgel.
And our history of inserting ourselves, refusing to work with the local democratically elected government, setting up our own candidate in the race and… uh sometimes assassinating the opposition if it looks like the plant isn’t going to win. (see Jacobo Arbenz, Mohammad Mosaddeq, Salvador Allende, if you want more listen to “same thing” by Flobots but make sure to verify things after)
But my goal isn’t to say Hamas good Israel bad (although I very much laid it all on Netanyahu). My goal was to see if I could absolve Hamas of the “terrorist” label from the US. Without that label it’s a lot easier to see the true story of Palestine.
But in the interest of staying focused on how this is a problem with Netanyahu and not the Israeli people I wanna say there were several peace talks brought to my attention (several or most involving Bibi) in the thread that I still need to dig into. And I do intend to keep reading so I can speak more accurately on the topic.
Nope, you can’t. On the other side of things you can’t absolve Kahanites of the same label, Hamas and Kahanites both employ terrorism as a tactic, both are fascist, and both are genocidal. OTOH I wouldn’t go so far and extend those label to all of religious Zionism, in the same sense that there’s a rather large difference between Mormons and the Ku Klux Klan.
As to Netanyahu: I rather see him as what we call in Germany a stirrup holder: He’s right-wing, no doubt, but primarily he’s interested in power because it allows him to be corrupt without facing prison, if another approach would fulfil his goals he’d drop Otzma Yehudit without second thought. He’s basically a more coherent, more strategic, less impulse-driven, Trump, but as blind to the dangers of fascism and the ways they achieve power as too fucking many other people.
Maybe I’m explaining myself poorly, maybe you disagree. To clarify to anyone still reading I am not trying to absolve anyone of murder. Hamas did commit terrorism as defined in the dictionary.
But should the US be the entity in charge of making that distinction? Has the US ever used that designation inappropriately?
As an American I think Americans are particularly brainwashed about the term after the War on Terror and tying the word so heavily to racism. Terrorists are monsters but that rhetoric allowed us to dehumanize anyone accused of being a terrorist to horrific levels.
It is my belief that many of us realize we were manipulated by the rhetoric of War on Terror but find it a lot harder to look back before the War on Terror with the same clarity.
You mean a Zionist made Israel great again while cultivating the “victim” mentality of Jews in his country to a degree where (predominantly female) German tourists are openly cornered and asked how they personally would make up for “their” atrocities while those atrocities happened 2 generations ago?
It’s possible to blame both. There’s nothing in the comment you’re responding to saying Israel is not a terror state or that they’re not to blame for things going to shit.
You can absolutely blame Hamas for their actions. And you can blame Israel for Hamas. Responding to completely fair criticism of Hamas by whining that Israel is worse is just whataboutism. They are both terror organizations at this point.
It’s not whataboutism, it’s identifying the root cause of the conflict. They’re absolutely both terror organizations, but criticizing one without criticizing the other equally is taking a clear side.
It’s not taking a clear side, sometimes one of them is the topic of conversation.
There is no Hamas without Israel. There is no discussion of one side without discussion of the other, unless you were trying to create an asymmetrical dialogue.
So you want all Jews to leave the area?
Israelis call themselves Jews, but it’s clear they worship Mammon.
Spoken like a true Nazi.
Sometimes I’m on the phone and just want to type a few sentences on-topic, not a history essay.
It’s so easy to write damning sentences about Hamas, and so difficult to write the same about Israel.
This is why I’ve stayed out of the fray, everyone here is a bad actor. There are decades of eye for an eye that have resulted in everyone being blind.
Revolutionary militant groups don’t spawn where material conditions are being met. If every Palestinian was “middle class,” Hamas would have never flourished. Which tells you everything about who is to blame.
To add to this and as I wrote somewhere else, the Israeli State has for so long made life so hard for Palestinians, especially in the Gaza strip, that there are now tens of thousands of Palestinians with so little to lose that joining an organisation internationally seen as a terrorist organisation is still a step-up from that.
Reminds me of the parable “the more you squeeze the more sand dissapears between your fingers”.