The maps printed out at my county permit center arent as pristine as those maps off dead bodies in a warzone.
If you really think resistance fighters were carrying around a bunch of stapled word documents labelled ‘TOP SECRET’ like some TV villains then I have 10 bridges to sell you. Insane levels of deception here
The union won Gettysburg because they bagged a guy who was carrying Robert E. Lee’s secret plans wrapped around cigars, it’s not that crazy
This doesn’t look like fabricated evidence at all. I am very happy with the fact checking of our media.
It would be hard to say what Israel is lying about in this situation. Overall, it’s not like we don’t have verifiable evidence Hamas planned a invasion and executed it.
We don’t exactly need more proof they were responsible.
But my overall problem has to do with the fact that anyone could have printed these documents and labeled them “Top Secret” and “found” them on enemy combatants. Specifically anyone with an A4 type color printer.
I don’t think Israel has a reason to lie about this, but I will state the obvious that this evidence is paper thin in comparison to the live videos of hostages.
I have no doubt about Hamas fighters invading Israel. That is pretty evident. But this kind of “evidence” found on the fighters is pretty suspicious. It is as credible as the pristine passports of the terrorists found near the WTC after 9/11.
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Yah, I want to see high resolution scans of those documents, check the MIC and get a statement from the printer manufacturer what country the printer was sold to. Want to place a bet it was Israel?
Edit: fixed link formatting
You know everything imported to Gaza goes through Israel, right?
So you’re saying all printers in Gaza were bought by Israel, right?
All printers in gaza have “Israel” as the region. But not only, basically everything that’s in Gaza is marked in “israel” region. That’s because Egypt almost never open their border crossing with Gaza and doesn’t export anything to Gaza (it had actually just shut down and barred the crossing with concrete slabs today, in order to prevent refugees from escaping).
I’m not even sure what you’re trying to talk about here. Regional settings? Look, devices have serial numbers. Manufacturers keep track of where devices are sold to. It does not matter what route a device takes, only who pays for it. The number of devices in Gaza paid for by Israel is going to be very small. If a non profit in Germany buys a printer for a hospital in Gaza, that device will go through Israel before ending up in the hands of Hamas, and that device might or might not have Israel regional settings, that does not magically make Israel the buyer and does not alter the manufacturers or traders records who the device was sold to. It’s really not that hard to understand, is it?
Can you explain how, if not fabricated, it’s blown out of proportion?
Just like those decapitated babies they can’t find pics of or prove in any way they exist
When you paint yourself into a corner like that your only options are to DIY or try to sweep it under the rug
Yeah the burned photos weren’t doing it since that’s very clearly not the same as beheading and so now they are just trying to show it could be true because “look at all this smoke we are pumping into the room! Somewhere in here might be an actual fire no one can actually find anymore!”
Doesn’t matter. The leaders will keep doing what they want and the people who want to agree and watch the “Animals of Palestine” be wiped out will take anything to prove it was necessary.
Why does it sound fabricated that an attack that killed 1200 civilians targeted civilians?
For me it makes total sense.
Hamas is a genocidal, racist organization who declared in their charter peace talks are “a waste of time and vain endeavors”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
Yeah, maybe this is fabricated. But we do not need to collect evidence to be able to judge who they are. They state it proud and clearly.
I’m talking about the attack plan printout here. Not the attack itself.
I’m not sure about your logic here, do you recognize the attack but reject that it was planned with printouts? Do you think the attack of >2000 terrorists was spontaneous?
I’m not sure if you’re playing dumb here. What I’m saying is, that this looks like Israel is planting fake evidence to spin a narrative. That does neither mean nor imply that there was no attack or that that was not planned. The “40 beheaded babies” turned out to be bullshit and I bet this will too. Even if the printouts turn out to be genuine, the reporting on it seems to be disingenuous and tries to make Hamas, and by extension the Palestinian people, look even worse than they are to make the over the top retaliation more palatable to the world by dehumanizing the enemy.
The ‘40 beheaded babies’ were a misquote from an interview with one IDF commander blown up by some media. It was corrected quickly.
Even if the printouts turn out to be genuine, the reporting on it seems to be disingenuous and tries to make Hamas, and by extension the Palestinian people, look even worse than they are to make the over the top retaliation more palatable to the world by dehumanizing the enemy.
Wait so if I understand you correctly: even if these documents are genuine and prove that Hamas explicitly wanted to target children, it’s still a big media conspiracy to make Hamas worse than they are?
What spin does Israel need to be doing exactly? This is all coming from Hamas itself.
Have you ever heard of propaganda and dehumanization? Have you also noticed how Israel has already killed at least three times more civilians in the past few days?
Hamas targeted residential district …
Hamas target school in … to kill children!!!
Spot the difference. What feels more like honest reporting and why would one choose the other option?
The ‘40 beheaded babies’ were a misquote from an interview with one IDF commander blown up by some media. It was corrected quickly.
Even if the printouts turn out to be genuine, the reporting on it seems to be disingenuous and tries to make Hamas, and by extension the Palestinian people, look even worse than they are to make the over the top retaliation more palatable to the world by dehumanizing the enemy.
Wait so if I understand you correctly: even if these documents are genuine and prove that Hamas explicitly wanted to target children, it’s still a big media conspiracy to make Hamas look worse than they are?
I think you’ve strayed far from the path
Wait so if I understand you correctly: […]
You don’t.
even if these documents are genuine and prove that Hamas explicitly wanted to target children, it’s still a big media conspiracy to make Hamas look worse than they are?
No. But I don’t see that from those pictures. They targeted a residential area, which happened to contain a school (big surprise). Like with the “beheaded babies”, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. From the provided information I’m not convinced that Hamas targeted children specifically.
Targeting civilians is already bad. The way I suggest they spin a story is by setting the focus on children, babies, women, … to appeal to emotions rather than just reporting facts. And I think they do that to dehumanize Hamas and by extension Palestinians to justify the retaliatory atrocities of an even bigger magnitude in the eyes of the world.
It’s really not that hard of a concept to grasp … remember the babies taken out of the incubators in Iraq?
Found it: https://maps.app.goo.gl/HVGPAaCMFHJQsxEg9
Google says it’s a research institute but there are photos of kids on horseback?
Why target a lone school when theres like 15 more in a dense area 6 miles to the north east? Maybe too hard to get too?
Edit: might be a middle school? https://sites.google.com/a/sulam.co.il/daat_herum/home
Edit: or a high school of 100
I’ve marked what I believe is the only school in the immediate area in purple
Edit: There may be a second school, an elementary school, above the purple arrow, in the buildings with the blue “roofs” in the top right.
Given that Hamas launched this attack on a Saturday during Shabbat… sure looks like they were targeting schoolchildren at the school, eh?
Probably easy target and sends a chilling message
Probably easy target
I’m guessing this is most of it. Looks like a ~7 minute drive from the border. Actually, to avoid the radar marked on the map they probably came in exactly where I put that purple arrow.
sends a chilling message
Actually I’m saying kinda the opposite. There’s 4 schools 7 minutes south, coulda sent a bigger message.I’m piecing this together as we go. Ok so I checked the distance from Sa’ad to Sderot (30 minutes by car) and while doing so I noticed something.
There was a key on the map I didn’t understand “kibbutz portal”. Well if you were planning on driving from Sa’ad to Sderot the “kibbutz portal” is the road google maps tells you to start at.
So they probably started here, attacked Sa’ad and then took the “kibbutz portal” to Sderot
I want these “Hama’s” bastards fucking DEAD. Do NOT target people’s kids, end of story.
Their kids didn’t target that school. You know damn well I fucking didn’t mean the Hamas’ kids should die.
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the documents too?
Smoking gun evidence in an active war zone should be taken with a huge grain of salt.
That doesn’t mean they can’t be authentic, it just means you shouldn’t just assume they are at this point.
And when Hamas claims to have recovered from a dead IDF officer the plans for a tactical nuclear strike, or chemical warfare in Gaza, that should also be taken with a grain of salt.
Assume the majority of OMG LOOK AT THIS EVIDENCE type of information from the ground is being shaped, or fabricated, by information operation teams from one side of this conflict, or the other.
That doesn’t mean OMG SMOKING GUN stories can’t be genuine, just that you shouldn’t automatically assume they are.
The world needs to recognise PALESTINIANS as legitimate but not Hamas. Hamas has invaded the open wound which is Gaza, and promotes evil toxicity rather than healing.
Israel is responsible for far more death than Hamas, yet you blame Hamas. This open wound you speak of, it’s maintained and exacerbated by the IDF.
Remember when we almost had peace in '94 and then a Zionist fucked it all up?
You mean a Zionist made Israel great again while cultivating the “victim” mentality of Jews in his country to a degree where (predominantly female) German tourists are openly cornered and asked how they personally would make up for “their” atrocities while those atrocities happened 2 generations ago?
Wait I don’t know about that.
Copied from myself elsewhere:
In 94 we (royal) almost had peace. In '93 The Oslo accords promised Palestinians self governance in 5 years. Israel under Rabin and Abbas with the PLO had an agreement for Palestine to be run by the PA in the mean time and work towards peace.
Rabin along with either Abbas or Arafat (can’t remember) even pulled Israeli troops out of occupied Palestine and gave land back as part of the peace agreement, marking the most significant step towards peace we will see.
But then Rabin was assassinated in 95 by a zionist. Israel turns over to Netanyahu. Netanyahu refuses to meet with Arafat.
Oslo II fell apart as the US refused to recognize Hamas (who had popular support), preferring the secular Fatah (PA). Whats the point in holding an election if it wont be recognized anyways? Hamas doesn’t enter the '96 race.
At some point Netanyahu starts funding Hamas knowing that he can also pit Hamas against the Fatah. Netanyahu will fund Hamas on multiple occasions throughout the 90’s and 2000’s.
In '97 the US declares Hamas a terrorist group, ending any chance of an election that satisfies the people.
Hamas wins the '06 election
Saying Rabin was assassinated by a Zionist is very unfair. Especially since Rabin was one of the biggest Zionist leaders since ever. Yigal Amir (Rabin’s killer) is a Kahanist terrorist. And while self identifying as a Zionist, he probably also opposes most major Zionist leaders across history, from Ben Gurion to Rabin. It’s similar to saying a KKK hate crime was commited by Wstern American patriots.
Anyway after the murder, Israel had made very serious attempts at peace.
- Hebron treaty
- Wye and Sharem memorandums
- Camp David talks
- Aqaba, the Geneba Initiative
- Sharem a-Sheikh summit
- The unilateral disengagement and freeing of Gaza from Israeli occupation
- Olmert - Abbas talks
- The Annapolis Conference
- The 2010 peace talks
- The 2013-2014 peace talks
Some of those were very extensive and Israel made large concessions in the negotiations. Most of the serious attemts were ended by the Palestinians. There’s a saying in israel “The Palestinians never miss the opportunity to miss an opportunity for peace”. Today the Palestinian Authority (PA) has very little legitimacy within the Palestinian population, and arguably don’t represent the Palestinian people. It’s not cut and dry since there hadn’t been any elections in decades, but the sentiment for Hamas and other Palestinian factions and against the PA is very clear.
article 13, “There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”[6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
Must be fun to negotiate with a party for peace, who declared in their charter that all this is “a waste of time and vain endeavors”, alongside genocidal racist fantasies.
Israel politics has it’s own “gems”, but I find the Hamas hard to top. These aren’t accidents, this is all intentional. They don’t want peace.
If I moved into your house without permission and told you I’ll bomb the shit out of you if you look at me funny you wouldn’t accept it right away either.
So that’s why the Oslo accords stalled. That’s horrible.
Yeah there might be more to it but I’m pretty sure that assassination fucked up peace for the last 20 years.
Here’s one of the sources I used to come to my conclusion, it can give a more detailed explanation of the breakdown https://www.britannica.com/topic/Oslo-Accords#ref360514
Rabin was a well respected politician and former military hero, the Israeli public trusted him and would have made peace. Once he was assassinated that radical upstart Netanyahu gained more prominance and slow walked the peace process over a cliff.
and then a Zionist fucked it all up
Argh. Yigal Amir was and is a Religious Zionist, Rabin himself was a Labour Zionist.
I appreciate the clarification.
I posted the same comment in another thread and got some good feedback there too.It was this thread.I think “terrorist” is a loaded word and I wanted to understand the context because I’m very familiar with the US’s history of using the word “terrorist” as a cudgel.
And our history of inserting ourselves, refusing to work with the local democratically elected government, setting up our own candidate in the race and… uh sometimes assassinating the opposition if it looks like the plant isn’t going to win. (see Jacobo Arbenz, Mohammad Mosaddeq, Salvador Allende, if you want more listen to “same thing” by Flobots but make sure to verify things after)
But my goal isn’t to say Hamas good Israel bad (although I very much laid it all on Netanyahu). My goal was to see if I could absolve Hamas of the “terrorist” label from the US. Without that label it’s a lot easier to see the true story of Palestine.
But in the interest of staying focused on how this is a problem with Netanyahu and not the Israeli people I wanna say there were several peace talks brought to my attention (several or most involving Bibi) in the thread that I still need to dig into. And I do intend to keep reading so I can speak more accurately on the topic.
My goal was to see if I could absolve Hamas of the “terrorist” label from the US
Nope, you can’t. On the other side of things you can’t absolve Kahanites of the same label, Hamas and Kahanites both employ terrorism as a tactic, both are fascist, and both are genocidal. OTOH I wouldn’t go so far and extend those label to all of religious Zionism, in the same sense that there’s a rather large difference between Mormons and the Ku Klux Klan.
As to Netanyahu: I rather see him as what we call in Germany a stirrup holder: He’s right-wing, no doubt, but primarily he’s interested in power because it allows him to be corrupt without facing prison, if another approach would fulfil his goals he’d drop Otzma Yehudit without second thought. He’s basically a more coherent, more strategic, less impulse-driven, Trump, but as blind to the dangers of fascism and the ways they achieve power as too fucking many other people.
Nope, you can’t.
Maybe I’m explaining myself poorly, maybe you disagree. To clarify to anyone still reading I am not trying to absolve anyone of murder. Hamas did commit terrorism as defined in the dictionary.
But should the US be the entity in charge of making that distinction? Has the US ever used that designation inappropriately?
As an American I think Americans are particularly brainwashed about the term after the War on Terror and tying the word so heavily to racism. Terrorists are monsters but that rhetoric allowed us to dehumanize anyone accused of being a terrorist to horrific levels.
It is my belief that many of us realize we were manipulated by the rhetoric of War on Terror but find it a lot harder to look back before the War on Terror with the same clarity.
It’s possible to blame both. There’s nothing in the comment you’re responding to saying Israel is not a terror state or that they’re not to blame for things going to shit.
You can absolutely blame Hamas for their actions. And you can blame Israel for Hamas. Responding to completely fair criticism of Hamas by whining that Israel is worse is just whataboutism. They are both terror organizations at this point.
It’s not whataboutism, it’s identifying the root cause of the conflict. They’re absolutely both terror organizations, but criticizing one without criticizing the other equally is taking a clear side.
It’s not taking a clear side, sometimes one of them is the topic of conversation.
There is no Hamas without Israel. There is no discussion of one side without discussion of the other, unless you were trying to create an asymmetrical dialogue.
So you want all Jews to leave the area?
Israelis call themselves Jews, but it’s clear they worship Mammon.
Sometimes I’m on the phone and just want to type a few sentences on-topic, not a history essay.
It’s so easy to write damning sentences about Hamas, and so difficult to write the same about Israel.
This is why I’ve stayed out of the fray, everyone here is a bad actor. There are decades of eye for an eye that have resulted in everyone being blind.
Revolutionary militant groups don’t spawn where material conditions are being met. If every Palestinian was “middle class,” Hamas would have never flourished. Which tells you everything about who is to blame.
To add to this and as I wrote somewhere else, the Israeli State has for so long made life so hard for Palestinians, especially in the Gaza strip, that there are now tens of thousands of Palestinians with so little to lose that joining an organisation internationally seen as a terrorist organisation is still a step-up from that.
Reminds me of the parable “the more you squeeze the more sand dissapears between your fingers”.
I laugh every time someone tries to make me feel bad for Israelis, children don’t deserve any of this and I wish they could all be free of the horrors, but unfortunately Israel has murdered hundreds of Palestinian children, so they’re reaping what they sowed. Get fucked.
Numbers don’t lie, and if you actually look at casualty numbers over the years, there’s literally no excuse that can be made for them.
If my neighbor’s kid broke my son’s arm, I don’t get to break into their house and go on a stabbing spree through their extended family.
Your numbers lie, so…
https://lemmy.today/pictrs/image/81eaebe2-f080-4860-8186-f415dfc15d7f.jpeg
Its easy to murder Palestinian children when Hamas basically uses its citizens as meat shields.
It was easy before Hamas too, but white people in 1st world countries aren’t concerned with that. They’re just concerned because some white German girl got kidnapped by terrorists.
White?
Israel also uses it’s civilians as shields. Settlers are sent to the very edge of the tension zones (ie. not during active conflict) to literally steal homes out from under Palestinians. And those settlers take the heat, and at times are given guns. Mind you Israel is a state acting out classic Settler Colonialism at record speed, Hamas is a terrorist organization lacking broad support.
I think we have different definitions for “using civilians as meat shields”. I dont know where you are getting your propoganda but all of my propoganda says otherwise. Lastly, dont point to colonialism, that’s so cringe.
This echoes literally how Americans conquered our land. And how many european countries conquered their land. Its the same shit just in modern day. So yeah its settler colonialism.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Documents exclusively obtained by NBC News show that Hamas created detailed plans to target elementary schools and a youth center in the Israeli kibbutz of Kfar Sa’ad, to “kill as many people as possible,” seize hostages and quickly move them into the Gaza Strip.
The attack plans, which are labeled “top secret” in Arabic, appear to be orders for two highly trained Hamas units to surround and infiltrate villages and target places where civilians, including children, gather.
Surveillance video of Hamas terrorists entering a kibbutz on Oct. 7 shows tactics similar to those laid out in the documents obtained by NBC News.
The Israeli officials said that the wider group of documents show that Hamas had been systematically gathering intelligence on each kibbutz bordering Gaza and creating specific plans of attack for each village that included the intentional targeting of women and children.
A video released by Hamas on Friday showed armed terrorists holding and feeding Israeli children taken hostage, including babies.
One IDF official, who declined to be named while the investigation is ongoing, said he was astounded by the degree of planning that went into ensuring maximum civilian casualties.
The original article contains 614 words, the summary contains 191 words. Saved 69%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
One IDF official, who declined to be named while the investigation is ongoing, said he was astounded by the degree of planning that went into ensuring maximum civilian casualties.
They learned it from watching you.
Active conflicts ALWAYS have ACTIVE INFORMATION OPERATIONS.
Be skeptical. Just like how there is always a teddy bear in the rubble in Gaza, don’t take any “smoking gun” evidence at face value, from either side. Period.
At this point I don’t believe a damn word I read. I’m half convinced there isn’t a war. One day after I made a comment that a random twitter user could allege that one side is using white phosphorus and half the people reading would believe it without question, Israel was accused of using white phosphorus.
It’s tiring. Kill every combatant on both sides and let the civilians live in peace.
Sadly, that’s another objective for some types of information operations (not all, but some): believe nothing, trust no one. That is actually one of the primary objectives of Russia’s propaganda machine, which is why their state media gives conflicting accounts of the same story.
But that is not what I’m suggesting anyone does. I’m saying take in the information, mentally archive it, wait, and continue observing.
The first thing that dies in war is the truth.
Be skeptical.
I agree. Too many people see only what they want.
“exclusively obtained by NBC News” 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😒😂😒😂😂
What a bunch of propagandistic shit, OP. We all already know Hamas is a terrorist organization who launched a massacre aimed at creating as much shock and horror as possible. Let’s shift the conversation to Israel and what we can, as westerners, advocate for and against.
The US literally has a Zionist president. Biden passionately supports Israel’s Settler Colonialism, Genocide, and excuses their War Crimes. Nothing will be done about this, for years, until voters prove we will vote against this wicked set of beliefs. 70% of Americans support Palestine. Why have we got a Zionist president?
Voters don’t have that much say in who becomes president. The system is rigged. You either get fascist red or diet fascist blue. Until the first past the post system is eliminated it’s going to stay rigged.
American voters are too busy trying to prevent the right from taking over to consider what our only option’s current stance on foreign policy is. Add to that the crippling fact that about half of our voting population actually does want a red flavored fascist take over.
If not for our zionist president, we’d have a dictator wannabe entering his second term. It’s not a good situation.
Edit: I’m not saying this post isn’t propaganda bullshit, just that relying on the American voter to vote on foreign policy morals isn’t going to get you very far.
Ok ykw you are right
If you want to kill all Jews anyways, why wait until they reach adulthood?
“The Hamas credo is not just anti-Israel, but profoundly anti-Semitic with racism at its core. The Hamas Charter reads like a modern-day Mein Kampf.” According to the charter, Jewish people “have only negative traits and are presented as planning to take over the world.” The 1988 Charter claimed that the Jews deserved God’s/Allah’s enmity and wrath because they received the Scriptures but violated its sacred texts, disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew their own prophets.[36] It quotes a saying of Muhammad from a hadith:
The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, ‘O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’ Only the Gharkad tree would not do that, because it is one of the trees of the Jews.
Multiple commentators, including Jeffrey Goldberg and Philip Gourevitch, have identified this passage as incitement to genocide.[8][9]
They’ve been learning for decades from the bests, the bastards.
Mhmm a top secret attack on a school…
On a Saturday? During Shabbat?
