War. It’s a conflict in a highly urbanised area with one side (hint: not Israel) actively using civilians as human shields. Of course there’s civilian casualties, that simply can’t be prevented in war, they can’t even be minimised if one side actively prevents it.
If you care about Palestinian lives then you want Hamas to surrender or to be destroyed. If you don’t then all you really want is to prolong the conflict, because Hamas has made it abundantly clear that they will not stop attacking Israeli civilians, forcing retaliation, and that they do not care one bit how many Palestinians die in that retaliation. They cannot be negotiated with.
Edit - it’s remarkable how hard y’all are ignoring who started this escalation with an utterly and inexcusably barbaric attack on innocent civilians.
Genocide. Can you provide any other explanation for cutting off food and water to the civilian population? This is indefensible. There is no purpose other than to kill or harm the innocent, and they cannot claim this was “unintentional” in any way. Even before we get into the various statements from Israeli officials.
Here is the relevant part of the definition of genocide:
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
You only need to do one of these things with the intent to destroy for it to be genocide. Israel has done these 3 out of 5 total. Support them if you want but let’s be clear about what is actually happening here.
If you don’t respond to my point why should I respond to yours?
Oh yeah, because I have self respect: not sure about the specifics, but maybe don’t cut off food and water to civilians? You know, if you lock down an area and control the water supply, maybe don’t use this as leverage? There are also many aid trucks Israel could simply allow in from Rafah. I really don’t see your point here, other than a pathetic attempt to avoid admitting this is obviously genocide.
Charming. And no, Isreal cannot simply allow in supplies because it would also be suppling Hamas, and it would potentially open a route for the smuggling of actual military supplies.
But if you are unable to understand that, bye, blocked ya, since that’s apparently what you want. Hope you can sleep with the knowledge that you’re supporting a group that proudly parades stripped, raped and broken women through the streets.
Not really. I wanted you to explain to me why you think that cutting off food and water to 2.3 million people doesn’t meet the definition of genocide. But you just want to talk about Hamas. I didn’t even mention them.
I shouldn’t have said you aren’t capable of it. You are, I’m sure. You just don’t want to for some reason.
They’ve done it to Hamas, yes, and Hamas has done it to the civilian population of Gaza who latest poll still has 57% majority support of the population.
Proving war crimes and genocide is way more nuanced than a 5 minute internet armchair google might lead you to believe.
If Hamas was NOT hiding amongst the civilians who majority support them, it’d be MUCH easier to prove your assertion.
Proving war crimes is super easy when Israel announces them. E.g. cutting off food and water to Gaza? Collective punishment aka a war crime.
You might want to think it’s all so complicated so Israel doesn’t look like an irredeemable piece of shit country, but it’s not and everybody watching what is happening objectively can see it all perfectly clearly.
You wouldn’t be able to prove war crimes there u less you could prove the absence of Hamas. And then you’d be right if that were the case.
Cutting off supplies to Hamas is what’s happening. Hamas is choosing to force the civilians to suffer. You’re right. We should condem Hamas and get rid of those monsters for what they’re doing.
Out of curiosity, what do you think is the right thing to do? Ignore the terrorist attack by the legitimately elected Gaza government? Why wouldn’t they keep doing it if you did that?
They’ve done that for a long time with rockets fired at (and killing civilians) in terrorist attacks that NO other country on earth would tolerate.
Eww mines are such a horrible problem worldwide. I get the intent, though.
They’ve done permiter security at crazy levels already. Hamas with the help of Quatar, Iran, Iraq, Hezbolla, etc… they have failed. To a spectacular degree. October’s attack makes trying to build a better wall or mined areas not likely as an effective solution.
Plus, then you get all the recriminations Bout racist apartheid, and nothing gets better.
There have been negotiations. But negotiating with terrorists is a debatable strategy, at the very least, right? Don’t have to disagree or agree, I’m just saying we are both aware that’s a strategy that has proponents and opponents for a reason.
The UN has had decades to inject a peacekeeping force. But the sad truth is that UN peacekeeping missions have a terrible failure rate, for many reasons, and I’m not just throwing stones at the UN here. But the reality is the outcomes from their deployment have been wanting.
That said, I’d love Israel to pull put and have an UN force in there instead. Even with the UN schools having taught anti-Israel sentiments and militarism in the UN printed text books.
Even with the UNs hostility towards Israel, I definitely would prefer them there. With the responsibility for preventing further attacks on Israel and Gaza and real repercussions for failure.
But no more mines. I wish mines were banned. I know they won’t ever be… but so awful.
I’ll say I appreciate your sincerity and taking the time to answer. And just because I disagree that this would help, doesn’t mean I don’t respect your position. We just disagree. I do sincerely want to find a convincing alternative to the current state of affairs as well. And know that my position is what it is because I don’t see a clear alternative atm. I’d love for that to change.
I agree on the mines, that’s why I put it under the maybe qualifier.
I think if you laid them out in only that area, and then just surround the whole thing with steel plate reinforced concrete walls, like a giant hollow Tetris L piece, we could all live with it.
The problem with mine fields is when they are unmarked or in an area with unrestricted access.
No one is going to accidentally stumble through a 20 ft tall and 4?( I don’t know the physics of how wide it would have to be compared to tall to be an effective wall here. Leverage is a bitch like that) ft wide wall.
That would have to be an intentional incursion.
That stops all of 10/7, except the paragliders, and they wouldn’t stand a chance without ground troops.
Air support can not hold ground, that requires boots on the ground.
Shit, we could even get a UN fund to build the wall, and the U.S. to supply the land mines, I think it is just us and North Korea that even have a good stockpile after russia used all of theirs.
I’m much more worried about a future where we would not be willing to repeat doing whatever is required to stop a fundamentally evil empire that is actively committing actual genocide.
What would have been a better course of action for the Allies that wouldn’t result in greater death and suffering? I can’t think of anything myself… but perhaps you have some ideas beyond surrendering?
The only way to stop Hamas is to kill all of the innocent children. If you kill 10k I heard you officially have beaten terrorism and they all just quit.
For today, with fucking sword missiles? A little more precision guided weaponry, a lot less dumb bombs.
But what with Israeli soldiers, burning food and water, destroying toys, cutting off food and water, and killing the Israeli hostages, and straight up admitting that they are keeping Gaza and that a two state solution will not happen?
I figure there will be a lot more innocent children killed.
In regards to nuclear weapons use in WWII, the dominant narrative is that the alternative is a ground invasion with greater loss of life. I guess the Allies just surrendering was an option to… but that’s would have lead to more genocide, no?
And while I know that’s the UN definition. I’m saying I disagree with it for being too broad and including most forms of warfare. I think actually planned slaughter of an entire group with the attempt of elimination is worth keeping a separate (and worse) category.
Most accept that the horrors of WWII committed by the Allies were ‘worth it’ to stop the more evil Axis. But if it actually was worth it is perhaps worth debating, I don’t disagree.
Yeah that was American propaganda at the time. Actual studies on Okinawa fighting suggest far fewer troop losses. The Japanese leadership themselves said the bombs were impressive but conventional bombing raids weren’t far off in power. They were far more scared of still being at war when Russia reached them.
I guess the Allies just surrendering was an option to… but that’s would have lead to more genocide, no?
Yeah I mean there were probably options between surrender and nuclear warfare, but I think this is beside the point. Clearly it was at least collective punishment and a war crime, that’s how I would describe it.
And while I know that’s the UN definition. I’m saying I disagree with it for being too broad and including most forms of warfare.
It doesn’t include most forms of warfare because it has to be, “committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.” So the US in Afghanistan, despite being shitty, were not doing genocide. For example. The allied liberation of France? Fine. The goal was not to kill Germans, even though it was a necessary component.
I think actually planned slaughter of an entire group with the attempt of elimination is worth keeping a separate (and worse) category.
Yeah I mean obviously putting people in extermination camps is worse than starving them, in a way, but also, if the numbers were the same, does it matter? Is the Holodomor “not as bad” as Pol Pot’s genocide?
What would you call this category you propose? And what word would you use for what Israel is doing?
probably options between surrender and nuclear warfare
Yes, a ground invasion. Which was mentioned in the previous comment. And no, I don’t think it was intended to ‘punish’ civilians, but rather to make clear that the Japanese empire could not win. A common claim is that it actually saved civilian lives.
the US in Afghanistan, despite being shitty, were not doing genocide
Agreed. But they were killing a part of an ethnic group in the process. And it included civilians at times. Doesn’t seem vastly dissimilar. And the goal in the fire bombings of Germany was absolutely to kill German civilians and it was explicitly stated as such.
if the numbers were the same, does it matter?
Yes, very much so. The intent and methods absolutely matter. 9/11 killed thousands of civilians, but it would absurd to consider it genocide.
Is the Holodomor “not as bad” as Pol Pot’s genocide?
Simply put, yes. But more importantly, they are fundamentally different things, which is what I’m pointing out.
What would you call this category you propose?
Doesn’t matter to me as long as it’s agreed upon.
what word would you use for what Israel is doing?
I’d probably just stick with warfare. Brutal and horrible warfare. They are waging war to destroy an enemy that attacked them, and in doing so are killing a fuck load of civilians in the process. Sort of like Britain in WWII.
I’ll pose a question back, how many civilian deaths/collateral damage does it take for it to be genocide in your eyes? What if the Israeli’s only killed 1 single civilian as collateral damage? 10? 100? 1000?
To me, genocide requires intentional effort to end a group of people and/or their culture through specific and measurable actions. Some definitions agree with me, others don’t.
Yes, very much so. The intent and methods absolutely matter. 9/11 killed thousands of civilians, but it would absurd to consider it genocide.
Here I was talking about intentional starvation vs just straight up killing. So of course this wouldn’t mean 9/11 was genocide. But intentional starvation could still be a method of genocide if that was the intent.
Simply put, yes. But more importantly, they are fundamentally different things, which is what I’m pointing out.
Saying one is worse is a bit of a hot take. But sure. But the “fundamental difference” doesn’t seem so important to me, it’s just a matter of approach. If you choose to use starvation instead of shooting them in a mass grave is it really so different? Like choosing a different weapon. Would you ever consider a mass starvation to be a genocide?
I’d probably just stick with warfare. Brutal and horrible warfare. They are waging war to destroy an enemy that attacked them, and in doing so are killing a fuck load of civilians in the process. Sort of like Britain in WWII.
Just regular old warfare. I see.
I’ll pose a question back, how many civilian deaths/collateral damage does it take for it to be genocide in your eyes? What if the Israeli’s only killed 1 single civilian as collateral damage? 10? 100? 1000?
I don’t think you can put a number on it. Hitler would have still done a genocide if he only killed 1000 Jews. It’s about intent. His goal was to kill Jews because they were Jews. Just like Israel cut off water and food to Gazans because they were Gazans. But I mean of course there must be some minimum value, I guess only 1 dead could never really be a genocide. But if Hitler had only killed 100 but had done so because of their Jewish heritage and his final solution? I guess I would have to say it’s just an ineffective genocide. Or an “attempted” genocide.
To me, genocide requires intentional effort to end a group of people and/or their culture through specific and measurable actions. Some definitions agree with me, others don’t.
Pretty good. As I said I would add that it doesn’t have to be ending the group in whole, but that it has to be because of their membership of the group.
Intentional effort to end a group of people through specific and measurable actions… how about: bombing civilian areas and cutting off the necessities of life. Bombing areas you told civilians to move to. Bombing UN schools being used as shelter. Attacking hospitals housing the sick and injured. Killing journalists. Not allowing them to escape from this horror. Doesn’t this meet your definition perfectly?
No, that’s the dominant narrative in the US, but the data, even the US government then-contemporary data, doesn’t support that narrative in the slightest.
Any sources for that? I’ve never seen anything that indicated that Japan was going to surrender, just philosophizing about if it was justified to drop the bombs.
“Certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.”
U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey’s 1946 Study
“It always appeared to us that, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse.”
General Henry H. “Hap” Arnold
Commanding General of the U.S. Army
Air Forces Under President Truman
“Careful scholarly treatment of the records and manuscripts opened over the past few years has greatly enhanced our understanding of why Truman administration used atomic weapons against Japan. Experts continue to disagree on some issues, but critical questions have been answered. The consensus among scholars is the that the bomb was not needed to avoid an invasion of Japan. It is clear that alternatives to the bomb existed and that Truman and his advisers knew it.”
J. Samuel Walker
Chief Historian
U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission
Sure, casualities can’t be avoided in war, but why in this particular war have there been literally thousands of children killed in a matter of two months? Innocent people killed at a rate unimaginable when compared to any conflict currently.
The downvotes from the Hamas supporters are a badge of honor. It’s Gaza’s elected terrorist government and has 57% support from Gaza residents according to the latest pole.
Always be a threat to Nazis and terrorists, and wear downvotes and bans with honor!
No. It’s a conflict in a highly urbanised area with one side (hint: Israel) deliberately bombing targets to cause as many civilian casualties as they can
No, it’s a response to the elected and majority supported government of Gaza’s war crimes in the horrible October terrorists attacks. It’s unfortunate for the 43% who don’t support hamas that the rest of Gaza shelters and supports them.
Leaving Gaza’s government’s attack unanswered would have just encouraged them more. Now, they will be wiped out as they should be.
This is not a popular opinion around worldnews where even in this thread there’s apologists trying to justify the initial terrorist attack by Gaza’s elected Hamas group.
Many would argue those atrocities of the past were justified.
Do evil things to prevent greater evil. If you disagree with that, that’s totally ok too. But what would you have had the Allies do in WWII? Just like, lose?
One of the worst war crimes of all this has been Hamas operating from civilian areas and buildings. Co-locations strip locations of their protected status and make them legitimate targets by international law.
One of the worst crimes that can be committed is co-location. The CIA has done it too with medical groups around the world… and those agents and anyone in that chain of command should also be charged with war crimes.
You aren’t very up-to-date on modern warfare if you think Israel is trying to cause as many civilian casualties as possible.
Fareed Zakaria reported this past weekend that Israel has the dropped the equivalent tonnage of two nuclear bombs on Gaza and 18,000 people have died. Yes, of course that’s bad, but two actual nuclear bombs, or the equivalent tonnage dropped indiscriminately, would probably have killed hundreds of thousands. They obviously aren’t trying to kill as many civilians as possible. The hyperbole isn’t helpful.
Because if you do it slow, people like you won’t notice, until it’s too late, and then you’ll just say that we should forgive them because it’s in the past
Because if you do it slow, people like you won’t notice, until it’s too late, and then you’ll just say that we should forgive them because it’s in the past
How exactly do you determine “who started it”? Is it based on who attacked first? Is it based on who killed the most people? How are you determining who started this escalation to be so sure?
that’s a very careful phrase, that. “this escalation” as though everything was fine back when millions of people were living in an open air prison and the flow of food, water and people was controlled by an adversarial foreign power that was denying them basic human rights, and the problem only started when someone who isn’t any of them committed a terrorist attack. “Look what they made me do to you” is the language of a narcissistic abuser.
When you justify a deliberate war crime by the Gaza government, when you align yourself with terrorists and apologize for them and grasp for justifcations… that’s a VERY bad place to be.
It’s good that people who are being radicalized and express support for terrorists are being tracked.
The problem with the word ‘terrorism’ is it makes you seem like you’re immediately the good guy and anyone who disagrees with you is a bad guy. Even if the “good guys” are killing 10x as many civilians as the “terrorists.”
More people are waking up to these tactics, so they are becoming less effective. You’re going to have to come up with a new strategy in the future.
The logical corollary to “oh this is awful, one side is taking way more casualties,” is to say “it’s much more acceptable now that both sides are more even casualties.”
Do you understand why this is morally and ethically bankrupt?
“Who started it” might work in kindergarten. Might.
Israel response is disproportional. It is also a single leaked document or an accidentally honest statement away from showing a clear genocidal intent. For now you could argue that it’s a sparkling ethnic cleansing.
Hamas being open about its genocidal intentions doesn’t render Israel indisputably good.
wargenocideWar. It’s a conflict in a highly urbanised area with one side (hint: not Israel) actively using civilians as human shields. Of course there’s civilian casualties, that simply can’t be prevented in war, they can’t even be minimised if one side actively prevents it.
If you care about Palestinian lives then you want Hamas to surrender or to be destroyed. If you don’t then all you really want is to prolong the conflict, because Hamas has made it abundantly clear that they will not stop attacking Israeli civilians, forcing retaliation, and that they do not care one bit how many Palestinians die in that retaliation. They cannot be negotiated with.
Edit - it’s remarkable how hard y’all are ignoring who started this escalation with an utterly and inexcusably barbaric attack on innocent civilians.
Genocide. Can you provide any other explanation for cutting off food and water to the civilian population? This is indefensible. There is no purpose other than to kill or harm the innocent, and they cannot claim this was “unintentional” in any way. Even before we get into the various statements from Israeli officials.
Here is the relevant part of the definition of genocide:
You only need to do one of these things with the intent to destroy for it to be genocide. Israel has done these 3 out of 5 total. Support them if you want but let’s be clear about what is actually happening here.
How do you propose the logistics of providing supplies to Hamas-controlled areas should work?
Removed by mod
If you don’t respond to my point why should I respond to yours?
Oh yeah, because I have self respect: not sure about the specifics, but maybe don’t cut off food and water to civilians? You know, if you lock down an area and control the water supply, maybe don’t use this as leverage? There are also many aid trucks Israel could simply allow in from Rafah. I really don’t see your point here, other than a pathetic attempt to avoid admitting this is obviously genocide.
Charming. And no, Isreal cannot simply allow in supplies because it would also be suppling Hamas, and it would potentially open a route for the smuggling of actual military supplies.
No, Israel cannot possibly allow these civilians to eat.
They must starve until the last Qassam Brigade fighter is dead alongside the whole 2.3 million.
You are totally ignoring my point because you don’t want to admit to what is obviously a genocide.
Good luck with that! But clearly you aren’t capable of having an honest conversation so I’m out. Hope you feel good about starving innocent civilians.
I’m not, I simply disagree with you.
But if you are unable to understand that, bye, blocked ya, since that’s apparently what you want. Hope you can sleep with the knowledge that you’re supporting a group that proudly parades stripped, raped and broken women through the streets.
Not really. I wanted you to explain to me why you think that cutting off food and water to 2.3 million people doesn’t meet the definition of genocide. But you just want to talk about Hamas. I didn’t even mention them.
I shouldn’t have said you aren’t capable of it. You are, I’m sure. You just don’t want to for some reason.
Can you really be happy with yourself supporting someone who is the cause of the tens of thousands of innocent dead who have nothing to do with 10/7?
I noticed that pro Zionists always just jump to talking about Hamas as a way to “win” any argument.
they bombed a hospital? Hamas was there
a child was shot in the head? The child was having Hamas thoughts
There’s a genocide? Nope, just Hamas
So you simply think they can starve however many civilians they want, most of whom are children, because it hurts Hamas?
Instead they sent Hamas money. God forbid we let people eat and have economic activity. But it’s perfectly okay to fund Hamas.
The mask is fully off, how can you still support this?
They’ve done it to Hamas, yes, and Hamas has done it to the civilian population of Gaza who latest poll still has 57% majority support of the population.
Proving war crimes and genocide is way more nuanced than a 5 minute internet armchair google might lead you to believe.
If Hamas was NOT hiding amongst the civilians who majority support them, it’d be MUCH easier to prove your assertion.
Proving war crimes is super easy when Israel announces them. E.g. cutting off food and water to Gaza? Collective punishment aka a war crime.
You might want to think it’s all so complicated so Israel doesn’t look like an irredeemable piece of shit country, but it’s not and everybody watching what is happening objectively can see it all perfectly clearly.
You wouldn’t be able to prove war crimes there u less you could prove the absence of Hamas. And then you’d be right if that were the case.
Cutting off supplies to Hamas is what’s happening. Hamas is choosing to force the civilians to suffer. You’re right. We should condem Hamas and get rid of those monsters for what they’re doing.
Never mind. I’m not sure you’re willing to listen.
By this definition nearly everything the Allies did in WWII was genocide. To name just a few:
-firebombing of German cities (such as Dresden)
-unrestricted submarine warfare
-bombing of Tokyo
-Hiroshima/Nagasaki
Atrocities of the past don’t excuse modern day atrocities. Your whataboutism is meaningless.
So you ignore the question?
Which question?
So maybe, just maybe, as ridiculous as this sounds, maybe we should learn from the past, instead of repeating it.
Out of curiosity, what do you think is the right thing to do? Ignore the terrorist attack by the legitimately elected Gaza government? Why wouldn’t they keep doing it if you did that?
They’ve done that for a long time with rockets fired at (and killing civilians) in terrorist attacks that NO other country on earth would tolerate.
Negotiate for your hostages, cede a mile or two of Israel in a perimeter around Gaza as a DMZ, and ask for a UN peackeeping service.
Maybe mine the everloving fucking hell out of the DMZ as well
Eww mines are such a horrible problem worldwide. I get the intent, though.
They’ve done permiter security at crazy levels already. Hamas with the help of Quatar, Iran, Iraq, Hezbolla, etc… they have failed. To a spectacular degree. October’s attack makes trying to build a better wall or mined areas not likely as an effective solution.
Plus, then you get all the recriminations Bout racist apartheid, and nothing gets better.
There have been negotiations. But negotiating with terrorists is a debatable strategy, at the very least, right? Don’t have to disagree or agree, I’m just saying we are both aware that’s a strategy that has proponents and opponents for a reason.
The UN has had decades to inject a peacekeeping force. But the sad truth is that UN peacekeeping missions have a terrible failure rate, for many reasons, and I’m not just throwing stones at the UN here. But the reality is the outcomes from their deployment have been wanting.
That said, I’d love Israel to pull put and have an UN force in there instead. Even with the UN schools having taught anti-Israel sentiments and militarism in the UN printed text books.
Even with the UNs hostility towards Israel, I definitely would prefer them there. With the responsibility for preventing further attacks on Israel and Gaza and real repercussions for failure.
But no more mines. I wish mines were banned. I know they won’t ever be… but so awful.
I’ll say I appreciate your sincerity and taking the time to answer. And just because I disagree that this would help, doesn’t mean I don’t respect your position. We just disagree. I do sincerely want to find a convincing alternative to the current state of affairs as well. And know that my position is what it is because I don’t see a clear alternative atm. I’d love for that to change.
I agree on the mines, that’s why I put it under the maybe qualifier.
I think if you laid them out in only that area, and then just surround the whole thing with steel plate reinforced concrete walls, like a giant hollow Tetris L piece, we could all live with it.
The problem with mine fields is when they are unmarked or in an area with unrestricted access.
No one is going to accidentally stumble through a 20 ft tall and 4?( I don’t know the physics of how wide it would have to be compared to tall to be an effective wall here. Leverage is a bitch like that) ft wide wall.
That would have to be an intentional incursion.
That stops all of 10/7, except the paragliders, and they wouldn’t stand a chance without ground troops.
Air support can not hold ground, that requires boots on the ground.
Shit, we could even get a UN fund to build the wall, and the U.S. to supply the land mines, I think it is just us and North Korea that even have a good stockpile after russia used all of theirs.
I’m much more worried about a future where we would not be willing to repeat doing whatever is required to stop a fundamentally evil empire that is actively committing actual genocide.
What would have been a better course of action for the Allies that wouldn’t result in greater death and suffering? I can’t think of anything myself… but perhaps you have some ideas beyond surrendering?
That’s a false choice if I ever saw one, either commit war crimes or surrender? Lmao
The only way to stop Hamas is to kill all of the innocent children. If you kill 10k I heard you officially have beaten terrorism and they all just quit.
For them? Idk.
For today, with fucking sword missiles? A little more precision guided weaponry, a lot less dumb bombs.
But what with Israeli soldiers, burning food and water, destroying toys, cutting off food and water, and killing the Israeli hostages, and straight up admitting that they are keeping Gaza and that a two state solution will not happen?
I figure there will be a lot more innocent children killed.
BOYCOTT, DIVEST, SANCTION!
Fuck Hamas and fuck Israel!
This is the UN dude, I didn’t write it. What’s your definition?
I mean… This may not be the fantastic point you think it is.
In regards to nuclear weapons use in WWII, the dominant narrative is that the alternative is a ground invasion with greater loss of life. I guess the Allies just surrendering was an option to… but that’s would have lead to more genocide, no?
And while I know that’s the UN definition. I’m saying I disagree with it for being too broad and including most forms of warfare. I think actually planned slaughter of an entire group with the attempt of elimination is worth keeping a separate (and worse) category.
Most accept that the horrors of WWII committed by the Allies were ‘worth it’ to stop the more evil Axis. But if it actually was worth it is perhaps worth debating, I don’t disagree.
Yeah that was American propaganda at the time. Actual studies on Okinawa fighting suggest far fewer troop losses. The Japanese leadership themselves said the bombs were impressive but conventional bombing raids weren’t far off in power. They were far more scared of still being at war when Russia reached them.
Yeah I mean there were probably options between surrender and nuclear warfare, but I think this is beside the point. Clearly it was at least collective punishment and a war crime, that’s how I would describe it.
It doesn’t include most forms of warfare because it has to be, “committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.” So the US in Afghanistan, despite being shitty, were not doing genocide. For example. The allied liberation of France? Fine. The goal was not to kill Germans, even though it was a necessary component.
Yeah I mean obviously putting people in extermination camps is worse than starving them, in a way, but also, if the numbers were the same, does it matter? Is the Holodomor “not as bad” as Pol Pot’s genocide?
What would you call this category you propose? And what word would you use for what Israel is doing?
Yes, a ground invasion. Which was mentioned in the previous comment. And no, I don’t think it was intended to ‘punish’ civilians, but rather to make clear that the Japanese empire could not win. A common claim is that it actually saved civilian lives.
Agreed. But they were killing a part of an ethnic group in the process. And it included civilians at times. Doesn’t seem vastly dissimilar. And the goal in the fire bombings of Germany was absolutely to kill German civilians and it was explicitly stated as such.
Yes, very much so. The intent and methods absolutely matter. 9/11 killed thousands of civilians, but it would absurd to consider it genocide.
Simply put, yes. But more importantly, they are fundamentally different things, which is what I’m pointing out.
Doesn’t matter to me as long as it’s agreed upon.
I’d probably just stick with warfare. Brutal and horrible warfare. They are waging war to destroy an enemy that attacked them, and in doing so are killing a fuck load of civilians in the process. Sort of like Britain in WWII.
I’ll pose a question back, how many civilian deaths/collateral damage does it take for it to be genocide in your eyes? What if the Israeli’s only killed 1 single civilian as collateral damage? 10? 100? 1000?
To me, genocide requires intentional effort to end a group of people and/or their culture through specific and measurable actions. Some definitions agree with me, others don’t.
Here I was talking about intentional starvation vs just straight up killing. So of course this wouldn’t mean 9/11 was genocide. But intentional starvation could still be a method of genocide if that was the intent.
Saying one is worse is a bit of a hot take. But sure. But the “fundamental difference” doesn’t seem so important to me, it’s just a matter of approach. If you choose to use starvation instead of shooting them in a mass grave is it really so different? Like choosing a different weapon. Would you ever consider a mass starvation to be a genocide?
Just regular old warfare. I see.
I don’t think you can put a number on it. Hitler would have still done a genocide if he only killed 1000 Jews. It’s about intent. His goal was to kill Jews because they were Jews. Just like Israel cut off water and food to Gazans because they were Gazans. But I mean of course there must be some minimum value, I guess only 1 dead could never really be a genocide. But if Hitler had only killed 100 but had done so because of their Jewish heritage and his final solution? I guess I would have to say it’s just an ineffective genocide. Or an “attempted” genocide.
Pretty good. As I said I would add that it doesn’t have to be ending the group in whole, but that it has to be because of their membership of the group.
Intentional effort to end a group of people through specific and measurable actions… how about: bombing civilian areas and cutting off the necessities of life. Bombing areas you told civilians to move to. Bombing UN schools being used as shelter. Attacking hospitals housing the sick and injured. Killing journalists. Not allowing them to escape from this horror. Doesn’t this meet your definition perfectly?
No, that’s the dominant narrative in the US, but the data, even the US government then-contemporary data, doesn’t support that narrative in the slightest.
Any sources for that? I’ve never seen anything that indicated that Japan was going to surrender, just philosophizing about if it was justified to drop the bombs.
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-the-us-really-bombed-hiroshima/
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-05/hiroshima-bombing-did-not-lead-japanese-surrender-anniversary/6672616
Here’s a few
https://libcom.org/article/1945-us-responses-atomic-bombing-hiroshima-and-nagasaki
“Certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.”
“It always appeared to us that, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse.”
“Careful scholarly treatment of the records and manuscripts opened over the past few years has greatly enhanced our understanding of why Truman administration used atomic weapons against Japan. Experts continue to disagree on some issues, but critical questions have been answered. The consensus among scholars is the that the bomb was not needed to avoid an invasion of Japan. It is clear that alternatives to the bomb existed and that Truman and his advisers knew it.”
In 2023 we have missiles that are so accurate we can arm them with swords instead of explosives.
Almost half of the missiles Israel has used were unguided
Yes, it’s too bad they don’t have more of the high tech ones. I guess we’ll have to give them more military aid so they can afford them.
Man you really worked to miss the point there.
Impressive!
Thanks!
Sure, casualities can’t be avoided in war, but why in this particular war have there been literally thousands of children killed in a matter of two months? Innocent people killed at a rate unimaginable when compared to any conflict currently.
Israel has killed more civilians in Gaza every year before the Hamas attack.
Israel has killed at least 10x as many civilians as Hamas since the beginning of the attacks.
The downvotes from the Hamas supporters are a badge of honor. It’s Gaza’s elected terrorist government and has 57% support from Gaza residents according to the latest pole.
Always be a threat to Nazis and terrorists, and wear downvotes and bans with honor!
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No. It’s a conflict in a highly urbanised area with one side (hint: Israel) deliberately bombing targets to cause as many civilian casualties as they can
https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/
No, it’s a response to the elected and majority supported government of Gaza’s war crimes in the horrible October terrorists attacks. It’s unfortunate for the 43% who don’t support hamas that the rest of Gaza shelters and supports them.
Leaving Gaza’s government’s attack unanswered would have just encouraged them more. Now, they will be wiped out as they should be.
Doesn’t seem vastly different from the firebombing of German cities by the Allies.
War is horrible. But it isn’t always genocide.
Atrocities of the past don’t excuse modern day atrocities. Your whataboutism is meaningless.
This is not a popular opinion around worldnews where even in this thread there’s apologists trying to justify the initial terrorist attack by Gaza’s elected Hamas group.
Many would argue those atrocities of the past were justified.
Do evil things to prevent greater evil. If you disagree with that, that’s totally ok too. But what would you have had the Allies do in WWII? Just like, lose?
I literally said war is horrible. I’m not at all saying it’s a happy fun thing we should strive towards.
War is horrible enough without war crimes. We don’t need to juice it
Those are all war crimes by today’s standards. We looked at what we’d done and realised it was wrong.
One of the worst war crimes of all this has been Hamas operating from civilian areas and buildings. Co-locations strip locations of their protected status and make them legitimate targets by international law.
One of the worst crimes that can be committed is co-location. The CIA has done it too with medical groups around the world… and those agents and anyone in that chain of command should also be charged with war crimes.
So then the bombing of Dresden was genocide?
Certainly a war crime. Yes.
You aren’t very up-to-date on modern warfare if you think Israel is trying to cause as many civilian casualties as possible.
Fareed Zakaria reported this past weekend that Israel has the dropped the equivalent tonnage of two nuclear bombs on Gaza and 18,000 people have died. Yes, of course that’s bad, but two actual nuclear bombs, or the equivalent tonnage dropped indiscriminately, would probably have killed hundreds of thousands. They obviously aren’t trying to kill as many civilians as possible. The hyperbole isn’t helpful.
Because if you do it slow, people like you won’t notice, until it’s too late, and then you’ll just say that we should forgive them because it’s in the past
They said they’re keeping Gaza.
No, he’s saying they could have removed ALL of Gaza without any invasion, IF they didn’t care about avoiding civilian casualties.
Pretending they’re intentionally trying to murder civilians like the elected government of Gaza did in October is disingenuous.
If Israel were intentionally targeting civilians, they’d have killed WAY more than 18,000–by literally magnitudes.
Because if you do it slow, people like you won’t notice, until it’s too late, and then you’ll just say that we should forgive them because it’s in the past
The faster we can kill every member of Hamas, the better. The sooner we can ease the suffering of the Palestinians being used by Hamas, the better.
Would you say the same if your mother or child was one of those people killed in collateral damage to something they had nothing to do with?
How exactly do you determine “who started it”? Is it based on who attacked first? Is it based on who killed the most people? How are you determining who started this escalation to be so sure?
that’s a very careful phrase, that. “this escalation” as though everything was fine back when millions of people were living in an open air prison and the flow of food, water and people was controlled by an adversarial foreign power that was denying them basic human rights, and the problem only started when someone who isn’t any of them committed a terrorist attack. “Look what they made me do to you” is the language of a narcissistic abuser.
When you justify a deliberate war crime by the Gaza government, when you align yourself with terrorists and apologize for them and grasp for justifcations… that’s a VERY bad place to be.
It’s good that people who are being radicalized and express support for terrorists are being tracked.
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The problem with the word ‘terrorism’ is it makes you seem like you’re immediately the good guy and anyone who disagrees with you is a bad guy. Even if the “good guys” are killing 10x as many civilians as the “terrorists.”
More people are waking up to these tactics, so they are becoming less effective. You’re going to have to come up with a new strategy in the future.
A lot of people need to wake up and realize that evaluating conflicts based on uneven casuality numbers is super sick and poorly thought out.
That it’s the driver for so much mistaken hostility speaks volumes.
So… the numbers don’t matter.
Are you a Zionist by any chance?
The logical corollary to “oh this is awful, one side is taking way more casualties,” is to say “it’s much more acceptable now that both sides are more even casualties.”
Do you understand why this is morally and ethically bankrupt?
I’m sorry, I’m not going to indulge your mental gymnastics just so you can avoid holding the IDF accountable.
How does it feel to be a modern day Holocaust denier? I’m sure the Germans felt they were only waging war against minorities as well.
“Who started it” might work in kindergarten. Might.
Israel response is disproportional. It is also a single leaked document or an accidentally honest statement away from showing a clear genocidal intent. For now you could argue that it’s a sparkling ethnic cleansing.
Hamas being open about its genocidal intentions doesn’t render Israel indisputably good.