• rayyy@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    Without a Palestinian state and a multi-national presence to enforce it there will never be peace. The motive for attacks will remain.

    • Rolder@reddthat.com
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      11 months ago

      A Palestinian state wouldn’t fix it either, considering that Hamas and similar groups in the area very explicitly want ALL the territory and want Israel to not exist at all.

      • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Hamas has explicitly said they would accept the 1969 borders with no settlers, no IDF presence, and an actual Palestinian state that’s not controlled by Israel.

        So try again.

        • Rolder@reddthat.com
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          11 months ago

          The same Hamas whose charter explicitly calls for the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people? Sure.

          • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            Go read it. No seriously. Stop letting Israel tell you what it says, and actually go read it.

            Here’s the link.

            They clearly do not like Zionism and would love to have the entire region back. But they lay out their demands for peace pretty clearly.

            • Rolder@reddthat.com
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              11 months ago

              Also in the linked 2017 charter they state

              1. The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination.

              Which certainly sounds like them wanting to destroy Israel.

              • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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                11 months ago

                They’re saying they don’t consider the state of Israel to be legal. That does not mean they intend to keep fighting after their demands for a Palestinian state are met. They are very clear about their peace goals and they do not include the dissolution of Israel.

                • newDayRocks@lemmy.world
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                  11 months ago

                  Declare our state legitimate, but also

                  Your state is illegitimate.

                  Sounds entirely peaceful and would not lead to further future conflicts.

            • Rolder@reddthat.com
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              11 months ago

              And then you look at their original 1988 charter,

              https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

              Where they say…

              Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah’s promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

              “The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

              Or,

              “ Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory). “

              • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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                11 months ago

                Well no. Because this charter is meant to supersede that. Just like nobody accuses the US of banning alcohol after having replaced that amendment with one saying alcohol is fine again. Trying to hang the original charter around their neck like an anchor is a propaganda thing meant to prevent them from moderating.

                Do we want less violence or more?

                • Rolder@reddthat.com
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                  11 months ago

                  Considering they have still been launching rockets at civilian centers not to mention killing innocent Israelis, taking hostages, etc since putting in the new charter, Im not sure I believe them.

      • Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca
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        11 months ago

        You’re down voted for truth.

        Many Palestinians would probably be happy for recognition of state I imagine but Hamas very likely would not. It’s currently a convenient excuse for them but if it happened I highly doubt they would stop trying to lob missiles over the border and be a peaceful neighbour, even if Israel stopped trying to steal land.

        Not saying it shouldn’t happen but it’s not some magical solution like many seem to think.

        • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          If they didn’t stop they would lose all support. They’ve explicitly said they’d accept a Palestinian state with the 1969 borders or a single state solution with rights for everyone.

          At the end of the day though, those are also just the best solutions. Genocide certainly ain’t it.

        • beardown@lemm.ee
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          11 months ago

          Israel has been building settlements in the West Bank for years. To say nothing of their bombings in Lebanon. They are a state that consistently does not respect borders.

      • disablist@lemdro.id
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        11 months ago

        Great, then it’s solved. The only solution is genocide. Doesn’t matter which side, just pick one, and kill them all.

        That is what you’re saying, right?

          • disablist@lemdro.id
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            11 months ago

            Good is relative. What you mean is that there isn’t a perfect solution. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

            So if your argument is that a two state solution isn’t perfect, therefore we shouldn’t do it, then that’s tacit approval for my first solution…a final solution if you will. Just pick a side, and poof.

            If you’re not comfortable with genocide, then a two state solution is the only viable path forward with any hope of chance of being made into a good outcome, even if not a perfect one.

            So pick one: a final solution or a two-state solution, but stop with the wishy-washy “the status quo must remain until a perfect solution is found”.

            • Rolder@reddthat.com
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              11 months ago

              Don’t get me wrong I’d love a two state solution or really any solution where they stop killing each other. But in order for a two state solution to happen, you need both sides to agree on the borders, and good luck with that.

              • NegativeInf@lemmy.world
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                11 months ago

                Just remind the Israeli government who holds the biggest stick and which hand feeds them.

                • Rolder@reddthat.com
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                  11 months ago

                  Reminder that the UN has tried to implement the two state solution before but the Arab side said “No we want all of it”

      • barsoap@lemm.ee
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        11 months ago

        An Israeli state wouldn’t fix it either, considering that Kahanites and similar groups in the area very explicitly want ALL the territory and want Palestine to not exist at all.