Almost 90 bombs were dropped in one region in just 24 hours.
Russia unleashed an unprecedented bombardment in southern Ukraine overnight in what local officials described as a “massive attack” in the conflict which has continued to rage even as the international community’s attention has moved to the war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza.
The Ukrainian Internal Affairs Ministry on Monday morning said Russia dropped at least “87 aerial bombs on populated areas of the Kherson region - the largest number for all time.” At least eight people were also injured in other Russian strikes carried out in the Odessa region further to the west on Sunday night.
One day US and EU propaganda claim that Putin and Russia are on a brick of collapse, that the russian army is unable of anything and UA is winning. The next day they’ll cry that the same russian army is 1st or 2nd strongest in the world, that it overpowers UA in all ways possible despite that US and EU help the latter.
And so on back and forth. Yet they claim that they don’t engage in propaganda and misinformation.
russian army is way more professional than th UA one
Never seen a single western article claiming that.
Putin is a master of your mind - he makes you think of him all the time.
I think he doesn’t want Laos to be the most bombed country in the world anymore.
90 bombs is more what was dropped per second there, not per day
Yeah calling 90 bombs ‘record’ is a deep, almost orange hue of piss yellow journalism
Might be record in the context of the Ukraine war not in all human history
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Could you provide a source on these talks between US, KSA, and Israel? This sounds plausible, but it would be the first I’ve heard of it.
He’s probably living in a fantasy world.
nope. he put in some links but it was regularly in the news for months. Its been going on for a long time. Well it mostly might have been mentioned on public radio considering my media habits.
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Thanks for the articles!
Between this and finding out that there’s natural gas under Gaza I’m getting suspicious
Wait until you hear it’s not “under Gaza” but under the sea, in what would be Gaza’s “economic influence” area… and that the Palestinian Authority has been in talks with Egypt to extract it, while Israel has been in talks with US corporations.
The gas is expected to be worth about 400 billion USD.
Didn’t know all those details, except I was under the impression that EU and Israeli companies were the ones trying to extract the gas, the US wasn’t directly involved in that from the few articles I’ve seen about it.
Did know about the fact that they are squabbling over a mere $400 billion. Fucking chump change at an international level. We could easily pay both sides that much and not hurt our budget.
Israel, US, Europe would always share the gas (through protected and exclusive trades). These parties all win when one of them wins. The same goes for Islamic States and the Arabic League.
Israel was a perfect and unfortunate point to disrupt an otherwise closed up and profitable region for the powers in the middle east.
You’re right, I’ve checked my notes and it mentions Shell; technically British now, post-BREXIT, but it has branches all over the world.
Anyway, the problem with those $400B is… if a corporation can sell for $400B and it only costs them $200B to extract and distribute it plus $20B to kill everyone in Gaza… that’s $180B of “clean” money (just dripping some blood). Shell’s yearly revenue is $380B, with a net income of $40B, so they’re just the kind who might consider it a reasonable 5-10 year plan.
Sept 29 (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia is determined to secure a military pact requiring the United States to defend the kingdom in return for opening ties with Israel and will not hold up a deal even if Israel does not offer major concessions to Palestinians in their bid for statehood, three regional sources familiar with the talks said.
A pact might fall short of the cast-iron, NATO-style defence guarantees the kingdom initially sought when the issue was first discussed between Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman and Joe Biden during the U.S. president’s visit to Saudi Arabia in July 2022.
Instead, a U.S. source said it could look like treaties Washington has with Asian states or, if that would not win U.S. Congress approval, it could be similar to a U.S. agreement with Bahrain, where the U.S. Navy Fifth Fleet is based. Such an agreement would not need congressional backing.
Washington could also sweeten any deal by designating Saudi Arabia a Major Non-NATO Ally, a status already given to Israel, the U.S. source said.
But all the sources said Saudi Arabia would not settle for less than binding assurances of U.S. protection if it faced attack, such as the Sept. 14, 2019 missile strikes on its oil sites that rattled world markets. Riyadh and Washington blamed Iran, the kingdom’s regional rival, although Tehran denied having a role.
Agreements giving the world’s biggest oil exporter U.S. protection in return for normalisation with Israel would reshape the Middle East by bringing together two longtime foes and binding Riyadh to Washington after China’s inroads in the region. For Biden, it would be a diplomatic victory to vaunt before the 2024 U.S. election.
The Palestinians could get some Israeli restrictions eased but such moves would fall short of their aspirations for a state. As with other Arab-Israeli deals forged over the decades, the Palestinian core demand for statehood would take a back seat, the three regional sources familiar with the talks said.
“The normalisation will be between Israel and Saudi Arabia. If the Palestinians oppose it the kingdom will continue in its path,” said one of the regional sources. “Saudi Arabia supports a peace plan for the Palestinians, but this time it wanted something for Saudi Arabia, not just for the Palestinians.”
The Saudi government did not respond to emailed questions about this article.
‘LESS THAN A FULL TREATY’
A U.S. official, who like others declined to be named because of the sensitivity of the matter, said the parameters of a defence pact were still being worked out, adding that what was being discussed “would not be a treaty alliance or anything like that … It would be a mutual defence understanding, less than a full treaty.”
The official said it would be more like the U.S. relationship with Israel, which receives the most advanced U.S. weapons and holds joint air force and missile defence drills.
A source in Washington familiar with the discussions said MbS had asked for a NATO-style treaty but said Washington was reluctant to go as far as NATO’s Article 5 commitment that an attack on one ally is considered an attack on all.
The source said Biden’s aides could consider a pact patterned on those with Japan and other Asian allies, under which the U.S. pledges military support but is less explicit about whether U.S. troops would be deployed. However, the source said some U.S. lawmakers might resist such a pact.
Another template, which would not need congressional approval, would be the agreement signed with Bahrain on Sept. 13, in which the U.S. pledged to “deter and confront any external aggression” but also said the two governments would consult to determine what, if any, action would be taken.
The source in Washington said Saudi Arabia could be designated a Major Non-NATO Ally, a step which had long been considered. This status, which several Arab states such as Egypt have, comes with a range of benefits, such as training.
The second of the regional sources said Riyadh was compromising in some demands to help secure a deal, including over its plans for civilian nuclear technology. The source said Saudi Arabia was ready to sign Section 123 of the U.S. Atomic Energy Act, establishing a framework for U.S. peaceful nuclear cooperation, a move Riyadh previously refused to take.
The Gulf source said the kingdom was prepared to accept a pact that did not match a NATO Article 5 guarantee but said the U.S. had to commit to protecting Saudi Arabia if its territory was attacked. The source also said a deal could be similar to Bahrain’s agreement but with extra commitments.
‘LOTS OF WORK TO DO’
In response to emailed questions about details in this article, a U.S. State Department spokesperson said: “Many of the key elements of a pathway towards normalisation are now on the table and there is a broad understanding of those elements, which we will not discuss publicly.”
“There’s still lots of work to do, and we’re working through it,” the spokesperson added, saying there was not yet a formal framework and stakeholders were working on legal and other elements.
The spokesperson did not address specifics about the U.S.-Saudi defence pact in the response.
Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has hailed the possibility of a “historic” peace with Saudi Arabia, the heartland of Islam. But to secure the prize, Netanyahu has to win the approval of parties in his a far-right coalition which reject any concessions to the Palestinians.
MbS said in a Fox News interview this month that the kingdom was moving steadily closer to normalising ties with Israel. He spoke about the need for Israel to “ease the life of the Palestinians” but made no mention of Palestinian statehood.
Nevertheless, diplomats and the regional sources said MbS was insisting on some commitments from Israel to show he was not abandoning the Palestinians and that he was seeking to keep the door open to a two-state solution.
Those would include demanding Israel transfer some Israeli-controlled territory in the West Bank to the Palestinian Authority (PA), limit Jewish settlement activity and halt any steps to annex parts of the West Bank. Riyadh has also promised financial aid to the PA, the diplomats and sources said.
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has said any bargain must recognise the Palestinian right to a state within the 1967 borders, including East Jerusalem, and must stop Israeli settlement building. However, all the sources said a Saudi-Israeli deal was unlikely to address those flashpoint issues.
Netanyahu has said Palestinians should not have a veto over any peacemaking deal.
Yet, even if the U.S, Israel and Saudi Arabia agree, winning support from lawmakers in the U.S. Congress remains a challenge.
Republicans and those in Biden’s Democratic Party have previously denounced Riyadh for its military intervention in Yemen, its moves to prop up oil prices and its role in the 2018 killing of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi, who worked for the Washington Post. MbS denied ordering the killing.
“What’s important for Saudi Arabia is for Biden to have the pact approved by Congress,” the first regional source said, pointing to concessions Riyadh was making to secure a deal.
For Biden, a deal that builds a U.S.-Israeli-Saudi axis could put a brake on China’s diplomatic inroads after Beijing brokered a rapprochement between Saudi Arabia and Iran, which Washington accuses of seeking nuclear arms. Tehran denies this.
“There was a sense that the U.S. has abandoned the region,” said one diplomat. “By courting China, the Saudis wanted to create some anxiety that will make the U.S. re-engage. It has worked.”
Reporting by Samia Nakhoul in Dubai, James Mackenzie, Dan Williams and Ali Sawafta in Jerusalmen, Aziz El Yaacouby in Riyadh, Steve Holland, Matt Spetalnick, Humeyra Pamuk and Patricia Zengerle in Washington; Writing by Samia Nakhoul; Editing by Edmund Blair
What a totally unforeseeable situation.
Can we please give the armed forces of Ukraine finally airplanes? The offensive is going nowhere if they are not supplied with an edge in combat gear.
3-4 months until planned delivery of F16s
The planes aren’t what’s taking time. The F-16s are either being used for training, which is totally unnecessary as that training takes place in the US, and we have a few hundred of the things pretty much just sitting around, or are on standby to be deployed. The training of the pilots is what’s taking time. I suspect Putin knows he’s about to lose air superiority, and this attack is a demonstration of that. He’s using what little weapons he has left, while he still can.
Haven’t you seen the pattern:
- Ukraine: Give us [some weapon].
- US/NATO: No, it would mean WW3.
Let some time pass.
- US/NATO: Well, we could send you some [some weapon].
Rinse and repeat.
Unfortunately it’s not that easy.
They have already got a large sum of F16’s, but it takes training of Ukrainian pilots before they can be used in combat.
From what I understand they should be ready to fly in early 2024. That still a long time to go - but you don’t want to lose pilots or planes because of inexperience with that type of airplane.
Nothing the West is willing to provide is going to change the course of the war alone. That ship has sailed, this is back to an attritional war with positional fighting.
The only thing the West can do now is provide LONG term commitments, written in law e.g. locked in funding for 5+ years of arms transfers.
Unfortunately, I don’t know how good the odds are that will happen. I hope it does, but we’ll just have to wait and see.
The ONLY other way for either Russia, or Ukraine, to win, is a new technological development that enables a significant change to the current battlefield dynamics.
This is a fairly simplified analysis, but it does align with the most current assessments provided by both the Ukrainian and Russian military leadership.
It is amazing how the news cycle dropped Ukraine so fast. Not good for getting US support, but I think Ukraine can still get support from Europe.
dropped?
we never drop our money makers just because you don’t hear about it. Double the wars, double the profits. what are you even talking about? All I see is money money money. now we get to ask for even more money as there is more demand and limited supply.
Mr. Krabs? What are you doing on Lemmy?
Money money money. Almost like money makes the world go 'round.
And still getting his ass kicked by civilian volunteers with drones.
Why don’t the Russian people get rid of this asshole?
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Gosh… Why didn’t the Germans kill Hitler? Why didn’t Japanese kill their “emperor” during world war 2? Why didn’t soviets kill Stalin or lenin ? What’s up with the dictators in China, why didn’t the Chinese kill them ? Why don’t the north Koreans kill their “leader”? Why didn’t Iraqi people kill Saddam Husain? Why didn’t Syria kill their Bashar al Assad? Why didn’t the Cubans kill Fidel Castro? Why didn’t the French kill Napoleon Bonaparte?
Maybe 🤔😏 people just LOVE living under dictatorial regimes?
Who knows?.. We’ll probably never know…
/S
We were all wondering how Trump made it out alive tbh
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The French managed it. The Haitians. Even the Libyans. I know it’s easier said than done, but quitters never win, do they?
Commented their way to revolution. Got it.
Why don’t the israelis get rid of Netanyahu?
Why don’t the Americans get rid of Genocide Joe?
Be the change you want to see in the world.
Israel managed to get rid of Netenyahu for a year or two but then he regained power.
Its different because America and Israel are democracies. Therefore, they can kill as many people as they want and its okay actually.
Putin is an evil dictator leading a rogue state (That’s on the verge of collapse! Any day now!) And suggesting he is in any way like an Israeli or an American flags you as a Chinese Robot Antifa Fifth Columnist Hamas Affiliated Trump Supporter.
Rogue state?
Anything that is not Western enough is rogue to this guy.
Hey now. Don’t discount all of our client states.
That’s a false dichotomy… Joe Biden is a genocidal Zionist and Putin is an ethno-national imperialist, there is no inherent conflict with those statements.
They are both the heads of militaristic, expansionist, capitalist governments. I never saw why people on the left are cheering for Putin. Is he in opposition to the western hegemony? Yes, but only because it stands in competition to his own western hegemony.
It’s like you guys are embodying the Godzilla “let them fight meme”, but forgetting that they are murdering thousands of people in the process.
It’s like you guys are embodying the Godzilla “let them fight meme”, but forgetting that they are murdering thousands of people in the process.
The meme was something of a joke in the movie, in large part because all anyone could do was kick back and let them go at one another. At best, a distraction would involve one or the other flattening you and getting back to the business at hand.
The Ukraine War is very much a Clash of the Titans, in so far as there’s nothing a domestic Russian or American do to oppose these colossal military forces. To actively oppose the old Cold War powers is an exercise in futility. All you can really hope for is that they exhaust themselves - possibly even kill each other off - and leave you alone.
Genocide Joe? 🙄
And who should voters replace him with, Mr Answers?
Genocide Joe? 🙄
People are really working to rob that word of all meaning
“We are all domestic terrorists”
That’s what they do.
Edit: They even called the congressman who pulled the fire alarm to delay voting so people could read the bill, an insurrectionist.
Are they? Or do you just not consider Arab people humans? Maybe specifically Palestinians are the bad ones we can exterminate, in your mind?
Which Arab nations have Joe Biden exterminated, exactly?
So if it’s not a genocide until you finish the job, you think the Nazis are innocent, I take it?
Which Arab nations are Joe Biden currently exterminating, then?
I see downvotes but I see no interaction with the two true assertions that make for this argument. Biden has the immediate power to stop this. And the this is a genocide of Palestinians.
And how exactly would he do that? I wasn’t aware he was The King of Israel. Should he threaten to nuke them?
Israel is a client state of the US. Biden could simply threaten to revoke aid and they would immediately stop the bombing. Their defense minister said so outright not long ago.
Liberals tell you they’re powerless so they can pretend to be good people who simply have no means to stop the status quo. Don’t believe them on either part.
In addition to not vetoing UN resolutions, Reagan took several actions that many in Israel and the United States perceived as anti-Israel. For example, on June 7, 1981, less than six months after Reagan took office, Israel launched a surprise bombing raid on the Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak, and, in so doing, violated the airspace of Saudi Arabia and Jordan. Reagan not only supported UNSC Resolution 487, which condemned the attack, but he also criticized the raid publicly and suspended the delivery of advanced F-16 fighter jets to Israel. Moreover, over the strident objections of Israel and the pro-Israel U.S. lobby groups, Reagan approved the sale of advanced reconnaissance aircraft (AWACS ) to Saudi Arabia, which Israel then viewed as a hostile state.
A year later, in August 1982, when Israeli forces advanced beyond southern Lebanon and began shelling the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) in Beirut, Reagan responded with an angry call to Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, demanding a halt to the operation.
In addition, during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, Reagan intervened directly when Israel threatened to blow up the Commodore Hotel in downtown Beirut, which housed more than 100 western reporters. As David Ottaway, who was then the Washington Post Middle East correspondent and was in the building, pointed out, the Israeli defense minister did not like the media coverage the invasion was getting and wanted to close down the media center.
Biden, on the other hand, even though he had an hour’s notice, failed to intervene to stop Netanyahu from bombing and collapsing the 12-story building that housed the offices of Al Jazeera and the Associated Press in Gaza during the recent bombing campaign. He also failed to publicly condemn the attack, let alone challenge Israel’s contention that the building sheltered Hamas military intelligence assets, despite AP’s insistence that its staff had no evidence that such assets were or ever had been present.
In addition to allowing the UN resolutions to pass and suspending the F-16 delivery, Reagan also restricted aid and military assistance to Israel to help force its withdrawal of troops from Beirut and central Lebanon.
Therefore, if in the future some members of the Biden administration or Congress want to join the international community in condemning Israel’s behavior, or in conditioning U.S. assistance or arms transfers and face resistance from Republicans, they need only point to the precedents established by President Reagan in the first instance.
I reject the premise of your comment.
neener neener poo poo to you as well
Or do you just not consider Arab people humans?
Its been standing US policy to dehumanize Arab people since at least 2001.
It’s a little harder than you imagine Source: I’m Russian
Ye, me too brother. People think 🤔 Russia is like easily changeable or something… I think people forget just how many Russians and other people Russians have killed and imprisoned since Russia began so to say. I think people don’t understand that Russia never had a democracy… Ever. I don’t think people get that it’s not easy to live and survive in Russia no matter when and where…
Also it’s as if people pretend not to know that if You protest 🪧 anything in Russia; you’re fucked.
People also don’t know that the policemen rape people / men in prison. They torture You and rape you. At anytime You can be put in an MMA style fight against an opponent who will brutalize You before You die of the physical injuries.
I don’t think people understand that if the world doesn’t help to establish a democracy in Russia that Russia will always ; always go back to its corrupt ways.
I don’t think people understand that there are also Russians who’ve been totally brainwashed just the same way that people got / get brainwashed in states like China, north Korea and Nazi Germany ( in the passed ) , imperial Japan etc.
I don’t think people get that its not easy to be the hero a martar or organize a rebellion when you’re under a violent regime and when all you have is your small family or none at all
Seems pretty simple, get tank, stand on tank with paper, scream loudly and voila we are done. Also, radiation salad works well.
Buy 2 TVs, so you can watch both human miseries unfold at the same time! Better than anything Hollywood or Bollywood or Nollywood could ever produce! And when you get bored, just vote in another war fueling and genocide financing psychopathic “lesser evil” moron into the office, so you never get bored of human despair and pain.
honestly? America only had as much to do with the Ukraine war as it was giving them the ability to defend themselves.
At this point, pouring on the bombs (shortly after gloating that the new speaker in congress suits Russia) seems likely to be as much about shifting morale (getting Ukraine to worry that its support from the west will dry up with Kremlin toadies in control of Washington’s purse strings) as it is about on-the-ground strategy or tactics.
It’s not like new Israeli atrocities detracts significantly from the world’s ability to pay attention to the atrocities in Ukraine, but anything that gives Moscow something else to gesture at gives it something to whatabout over, and getting the rest of the world (including nato members and US politicians) to fight amongst themselves (over whether it’s better to back a genocidal ethnostate or the terrorists resisting it) is always a win when the alternative might be for them to unify against your invasion of Ukraine.
Putin sees there’s no consequences for butchering thousands of civilians. Proceeds to do the same.
What makes you think this is his first time? Have you been paying attention at all? Are you somehow oblivious to the thousands of Ukrainian civilians who’ve already been killed by Putin? This selective outrage blows me away. Have you been asleep for the last year and a half? This is the madness of crowds.
Putin has killed fewer civilians in Ukraine in 2.5 years than Netanyahu has in Gaza in 30 days. Israel has shown that there are no costs for him to escalate dramatically as it’s clear the world won’t do anything.
The difference between Putin and Israel is… that Putin “rescued”, relocated, and gave a bunch of children to surrogate families, before bombing their parents.
I mean… that’s “technically” less inhumane, or something?
Ukraine needs all the air defense they can get. Russia has been signaling they will try again to freeze the civilian population this winter.
If we’d shift funds from Israel (who are committing genocide) to Ukraine (who are defending themselves) it helps Palestine and hurts Russia too.
Is a win/win.
Imagine if Ukraine had the iron dome America bought Israel.
Israel doesn’t actually need American money, unfortunately. Sure, it helps them, but they can continue this campaign for a long time without a dollar from the U.S. Ukraine, on the other hand, is a much more desperate situation. I’m not saying that means we shouldn’t shift funds from Israel to Ukraine, because I agree we should do that, but it will likely not help Palestinians much.
Israel is defending itself as well. They just have a better counter attack success rate. Or did we forget that Ukraine also wants to bomb Moscow etc. (and has launched drones etc).
The key difference is one is a gov one is a terror org who represents their gov.
No expert seriously believes that Ukraine has the ability to bomb Moscow. The few small-scale drone attacks attributed to it --Ukraine officially denied responsibility-- are thought to have been meant as psy ops, kind of a wake up call to Moscow, a city that Putin has gone out of his way to insulate from the war --none of his conscripts come from Moscow, for example.
Imagine if Ukraine had the iron dome America bought Israel.
I know your heart is in the right place but ID barely covers a city and operating costs are extremely high. Right now the missiles that the ID system uses cost something around $1,000,000 each so defending just this latest bombing run would have been $90,000,000 USD.
No one could afford to operate the system even if it could be built.
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ID interceptor missiles are more like $50k-150k a piece, but multiple are fired during each interception to increase chances of a successful hit. The amount fired already since the 7th is still probably in the $1-2 billion range if you estimate conservatively.
Iron Knife and Iron Beam are much cheaper per shot (~$4 and $2500 respectively) but are developed by Israel itself in collaboration with US military industrial contractors. The Gaza war is a giant live fire test for them and countries including the US and India are lining up to buy them.
Iron Dome as a whole thing array also includes David’s Sling and the Arrows which cover different type of attacks. I. E. Cruise and ballistic missiles amongst other things.
You are correct I just didn’t want to get into the details of how the system works. I think my main points still stand; the technical challenges of expanding a system like that to cover a a whole country would be massive and actually running it would be far too expensive.
Oh yea for sure it’s not feasible for anyone except maybe the US and in specific areas and along dangerous borders.
So you want Israel to be bombed even more and everyone there killed? Because that’s the plan of Palestine and Lebanon (which is genocide btw). And would happen if they didn’t have the iron dome.
Israel, just like Russia, can simply stop occupying territories which don’t belong to them and stop a genocide. And no one will be killed. Stop apologizing the genocide, ok?
Hamas attacked an area that did not belong to Palestine. And the areas they are constantly shooting rockets at are also not the areas that Israel took unrightfully. The idea that Palestine is only defending and not attacking doesn’t fit their agenda or their behaviour in the past and now.
Wut? Are you high?
Those bombings only happen because of retaliation to turning their country into a concentration camp.
Terrorism can not be justified, but I doubt many (including you) would act differently if you were in the situation Palestine is in.
Palestine did plenty much on their own to turn Gaza and West Bank into places not good to live in. Decisions I would definitely not share since I am not an Islamic non-democratic women-and-LGBTQ-hating anti-Semite.
They are not concentration camps. Perhaps you should look at how concentration camps worked if you try to compare the two.
Imagine all the dead Jews that would cause too.
Palestine isn’t a nation of saints.
Which is a “nation of saints”?
Western Samoa seems pretty chill.
Israel assassinates journalists and sells weapons grade hacking technology to oppressive regimes.
Also, until Israel started their ground assault Jews hadn’t really been dying since 7 October. Almost all deaths since then have been Palestinian.
There is a lot of misinformation in your comment.
The United States didn’t fund Israel’s iron dome system.
There isn’t a genocide (race / tribe killing) in Gaza. That’s a population transfer or eviction of lands.
Ukraine and the United States are working together to implement a air defense system. A likely defense treaty and a 100 year lease on military bases in exchange for infrastructure rebuilding is on the table.
There isn’t a genocide (race / tribe killing) in Gaza
Genocide isn’t just killing…
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
And even if that was just indiscriminate killing based on race/ethnicity, the UN is already saying what Israel is doing amounts to that
Your opinion is your opinion.
But what is/isn’t a genocide is clearly defined in the Geneva convention. And even if you’re definition was correct, the UN disagrees with you about Israel meeting that definition.
Geno: Race or Tribe
Cide: Killing
If you’re going to use a Latin word, use it right.
and literally literally means literally but now we use it to mean figuratively
turns out language is about use, not origin
If you’re going to use a Latin word, you might want to use it correctly.
If you’re going to argue the international definition of genocide…
You might want to go talk to the UN and all the signatories of the Geneva Convention.
The United Nations use of the word was translated incorrectly to English and is wrong.
If that was true, then I’m sure there’s lots of statements from human rights organizations world wide clarifying how it’s wrong.
Do you mind linking one?
Quick edit:
Also, that doesn’t mean Israel isn’t breaking the Geneva Convention…
In fact, it seems to be admission that they are…
Geno comes from ancient Greek.
Genos is the Greek word. Geno is the Latin.
The UN’s humans rights body is heavily biased against Israel. And in general not a neutral party as you seem to think.
Of the 193 countries which make up the UN, the majority (133) are non-democratic states. 48 are countries belonging to the OIC (Organisation of Islamic Cooperation).
Of the 280 human rights condemnations the UN has found world wide between 2006 and 2023, 103 where in Israel. They found none in, for example, China, Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. They also didn’t cry genocide during the genocide in Rwanda.
I 100 % believe Israel commits war crimes against Palestine. But I do not believe that Israel alone is responsible for almost 40 % of all human rights violations world wide since 2006.
So all war is genocide by that definition.
Some wars are about who gets control over some resources, or who will be collecting the taxes, without trying to wipe out the other side.
That’s a population transfer or eviction of lands.
Jesus christ.
That is what Israel has stated is their plan, relocation.
So genocide
Incorrect word.
The use of a loaded latin word like genocide is used to invoke mass killing and wiping out a population completely. If you see it used you know the source is extremely biased and should not be taken as fact.
Use the correct language so you don’t look like a fool.
You keep repeating this like you believe it. Find an English dictionary you’ll realise it’s an English word and it has a precise meaning that is not what you think it is. The fact you don’t agree with that meaning is your problem only, you don’t get to decide
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Genocide is an English word with English definitions.
You can argue about its roots and such, but that’s a different discussion.
It’s like “decimate”. Decimate is an English word with a different definition to the Latin word its based on. It used to mean “kill one in every ten”, now it means “to kill/destroy almost, but not completely”. (Almost the opposite meaning)
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. Along with direct removal, extermination, deportation or population transfer, it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction.[3][4][5] It constitutes a crime against humanity and may also fall under the Genocide Convention, even though ethnic cleansing has no legal definition under international criminal law.[3][6][7]
Yes, stupid people (United Nations for example) use the wrong word, all the time, especially when it’s translated from another language. Genocide is the wrong word to use. Israel is not wiping out nor trying to wipe out the Palestinians.
Since you’re the top mod, can I just remind you that you broke rule 5?
Or do I need to report your comment?
You’re still not understanding though, and it’s very important as a mod you understand this issue. Otherwise I’d have stopped replying already.
This ain’t an etymology thing. Definitions are clarified for legal purposes. I think you have to ask yourself why you’re trying to dig your heels in against a literal definition. They didn’t define it wrong, it’s literally defined in excruciating and exacting detail for legal purposes.
Israel dropped 6000 bombs in one week, on an area much smaller… More children have died in the first 25 days of the current Israeli conflict than in a year of the war on Ukraine.
I did not know this was a competition where only one could “win”.
It’s more like a competition where the bystanders lose
Well, given that at the same time as Russia dropped 100 bombs, once, Israel dropped 400+ (and in a much more heavilly populated area, so killing about 10s or maybe even 100 times more civilians), every night, it’s hardly surprising that at least the people who were against the Russian invasion of Ukraine as a question of principle (the strong attacking the weak, the murdering of innocent civilians for merelly having been born were they were born, the calous disregard for people’s lives and so on) are focused were a far more extreme case of it is happenning.
That in Palestine, the US and some of the largest European nations, unlike in Ukraine, actually support the strong who are murdering innocent civilians in massive numbers, just makes those who are natural supporters of victims to be even more focused on Palestine since the “great” powers in that case have not sided with the main victims but instead are giving cover and even monetary and military support to the side commiting a genocide, making such people feel their support is even more needed in the face of such “coalition of the strong”.
Meanwhile the crowd who are driven to take sides for reasons other than principle or morality are also being guided to focus on Palestine, the nationalists in nations which support one of the sides because their nation’s leader or favored politician is supporting that side, whilst the ones who mindlessly follow the baiting of the more propagandistic news and social media because the propaganda in most of those newspapers, TV channels and social networks is now entirelly focused on Palestine.
In summary, the crowd driven by morals and principles are focused where the greatest underdogs are being victimized the most and, worse, that is supported by the powerful, and the rest are either looking at the same because that’s were their national or political leaders point them to or because pretty much the entirety of the propaganda in the most manipulated newsmedia or social media is about that.
It’s almost paradoxical that Ukraine’s success at stopping Russia (thus avoiding the kind of mass civilian casualties there would be in something like a siege of Kiyv) thanks to the help of nations that are now supporting a side doing the invasion an mass killings, means that their plight is merelly a fraction of that of the Palestinians hence they eyes of the World are turned to the latter.
Writing essays on lemmy 🤮
Nobody forces you to read those.
It’s absolutelly fine to stick to simple bite-sized ideas that simplify everything to black and white for those for whom complex views are too much to digest as is absolutelly fine for others to prepare full meals for those who can and want to feed their brains with more than just fizzy drinks and candy.
However if scrolling down a little bit to go over that text causes you movement sickness as you illustrated, I do apologize and promise to give the appropriate level of consideration for people suffering from such a disability.
OK nerd please tldr your essay
LOL!
- Russian: fighting an armed country and fueled by NATO members
- Israel: fighting. I mean BOMBING from their heated offices, civil without shoes and haven’t sleep for 2weeks
Oh and between, Russia has been cut off from SWIFT, assets frozen if not stolen, etc etc… Israel? freepass
You can’t make more cynical, and binary treatment, you can’t
Russia: fighting to expand their territory because they want a new world order led by them Israel: responding to their most terrifying act of terror ever happened on their land.
Reason matters, and a lot. Russia has no good reason to invade Ukraine, Israel has a very good reason to invade Gaza.
Lemmy is just weirdly pro-Hamas and anti-Israel.
Don’t get me wrong, I think what Israel is doing sucks, but what Hamas is doing is equally bad. This is really a both-sides situation.
Pro-Palestinians <> pro-Hamas
I’m sorry what is that symbol supposed to mean besides ‘back and forth forever’?
“not equals”. It’s a matter of taste. Some people prefer != instead. But you get the point. Sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians does not equate to support for Hamas.
This is really a both-sides situation.
Hamas isn’t Palestine. Israeli gov isn’t Israel.
When you make simple distinctions like this, things get less complicated.
The impulse in westerners who want to support the Palestinian people against genocide trying to separate them from Hamas comes off to me as deeply condescending and obtuse. The majority of Palestinians support Hamas. And they have every reason to. Not that most of them were alive and old enough to vote for it the last time the Zionists granted them the privilege, but the vote between the PLO and Hamas when it occurred was between a group of collaborators who negotiated away any hope of returning to their homes and a group that -actually fights back against the people who killed your entire extended family-. Of course they support Hamas. Who else do they have to put their hopes into? You? At your keyboard? What’s your suggestion to them?
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In 2005 Gazans had complete control, without a siege over the region. The siege started in 2007. They had their own government and their own freaking autonomy over themselves. That’s just facts, whether they line up with your agenda or not.
The siege started after Hamas, an actual terrorist organization that advocates for deadly jihad over all of Israel, gained power in a violent coup, murdering the existing fatah members.
Not to mention that during the duration of said siege those 2 million had water, food and electricity provided by Israeli tax money, not that it makes the situation amazing for Palestinians. But no, that means that they have drinking water and food (at least when they don’t slaughter 1400 people from the hand that feeds them)
Reply all you like I won’t discuss anything with someone so brainwashed that thinks anyone who doesn’t agree with him is a fucking Nazi.
You’re truly a disgrace to humanity if you compare this to fascists. You’re either extremely ignorant, extremely brainwashed, or just have blind hate towards the west. No matter which of those you are, that’s scummy and oh how much I hope people with actual power in this world aren’t like you.
Israel is killing many, many more Palestinians than Hamas is killing Israelis and it has been this way for decades.
Also, doing wrong when done “in retaliation” is still doing wrong.
Also, doing wrong when done “in retaliation” is still doing wrong.
So… We agree that Israel killing civilians in response to Hamas’s attack is wrong, just as Hamas killing civilians in response to persecution by Israel is wrong?
Yep.
Weird how you misconstrue criticizing Israel’s genocide with support for Hamas tho. Very concerning.
Theyre both violating the Geneva Convention…
There’s no valid reason to violate that, that’s the whole point of it.
So… Just let Hamas use their human shields and keep launching rockets? And show terrorist groups around the world that it’s effective? No thanks.
Quick question bro but like what’s the ratio of dead Palestinian kids we’re shooting for that’s gonna make em square? Because you can say “we got the bad guy” all ya want, but if you had to bomb a refugee camp 3x to do so, for example, well that brings up some moral qualms for a lot of people.
Of course it does. War is terrible no matter what you do. There were 500k German civilian deaths in WW2 from the Allied Forces’ bombing. Does that mean it shouldn’t have been done?
Yes, wtf, bombing civilians is always wrong.
There’s a massive difference between targeting civilians to kill, and having civilian casualties while bombing specific strategic targets.
Or do you think it’d have been better to not bomb strategic targets, letting Nazi Germany gain the upper hand and kill millions more?
Uh… Yes? Multiple multinational treaties are now in place that disallow indiscriminate carpet bombings
That was 500k civilian deaths with strategic bombing specific infrastructure, not indiscriminate; it would’ve easily been in the millions otherwise.
War has always been costly. Israel is keeping casualties low by comparison, considering Hamas literally governed and built Gaza for 15 years around the idea of using civilians as human shields.
Lots of other countries manage to fight terrorism without violating the Geneva Convention and killing over 10,000 civilians…
Do you think Israel is just that incompetent they can’t?
If so, how does it make sense to give a government so incompetent literal billions of dollars a year?
But regardless of why the fact is the Geneva Convention is being openly violated. Which is a precedent that hurts literally every human on Earth
Lots of other countries manage to fight terrorism without violating the Geneva Convention and killing over 10,000 civilians
Are there any that are fighting a region entirely ruled by one? Taliban and Al Qaeda come to mind, and those regions had 100k and 300k civilian deaths respectively, despite US working with local forces.
And neither of those had the explicit intent of using civilians as human shields like Hamas is doing by building military tunnels under hospitals and civilian areas, or 15 years of control to build it around that idea.
If so, how does it make sense to give a government so incompetent literal billions of dollars a year?
That’s a different matter entirely. Other than that US military aid accounts for $3.8bil out of Israel’s already massive $23.4bil, I’d argue Israel is a greater asset to the US than the US is to Israel; it lets the US exert power and influence over the entire middle east.
Here’s a concerning Biden clip from 30 years ago supporting that.: “Were there not an Israel, the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interests in the region.”
Well, that’s your opinion, and I don’t care much for Bidens opinion either.
Over the decades of his political career, the only times he’s criticized Israels human rights abuses is to tell them it makes it harder for us to give them billions of dollars a year.
He doesn’t care about murdered Palestinian citizens, he just wants to keep the pipeline going so US defense firms get funneled tax payer money.
Do you not know anything about his political history before 2008?
It’s the same reason all American Presidents are “friendly” with Saudia Arabia, also. They have something we want.
Actually Israel isn’t technically violating the Geneva Convention. When you co-locate civilian and military targets, the civilian infrastructure loses it’s protections under the Convention.
The occupation of the West Bank is in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, article 49. This has been established by the International Court of Justice in a ruling from 2004. Israel’s defense was indeed that the territory is disputed instead of occupied, but its the only country that holds this position. Literally the only country in the world.
The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.
Sources: Fourth Geneva Convention, ruling of the International Court of Justice (relevant are paragraphs 90-101)
The West Bank isn’t at war. The Gaza Strip is. That’s the area Israel pulled out of and evicted (some at gunpoint) every Jewish settler; even those who had been there since before the 1948 partition plan. They’ve respected the 1967 borders there with no settlements as a way to prove that pulling back to those borders would lead to peace and not constant terrorism and warfare.
Ok, how does that support your argument that Israel does not violate the Geneva Convention tho?
It doesn’t, he just talked about how the west bank is not relevant to the geneva convention, and his point still stands in Gaza. Civilian and terror infrastructure is intertwined in Gaza, and that’s his argument.
Israel brought the terror on themselves. They are literally committing genocide.
Also, Russia is fighting to maintain it’s black sea port, which NATO interfered with. That territory has always been Russian, and only US propaganda claims otherwise. Want proof? Go look at the board games Diplomacy and Axis and Allies, based on WW1/2 respectively. Both show Crimea as Russia. Or just look at Wikipedia, for this and other easily verifiable facts.
If you go back further you had the Kyiv Rus there and it was Ukrainian plus parts of Russia were too.
Kievan Rus was Ukrainian?
The main part of it was on the part that is Ukrainian today, which is why the name is derived from Kyiv.
It was a multi ethnic state though. Russians of course wouldn’t agree, but they are not exactly a reasonable voice on such things.
Yeah, I mean there’s a reason the region became the USSR for a while, it’s all very interwoven histories. There were times Ukraine was part of Russia, there were times Ukraine wasnt Russia but Crimea was, etc. The important thing is that Russia is clearly entitled to the area that has always been Russian, in some form or another.
The reason the region became the USSR was Russian imperialism and military power.
important thing is that Russia is clearly entitled to the area that has always been Russian, in some form or another.
That’s not at all it. If anything Ukraine has not only the better claim to Crimea but also to some of the western parts of Russia than Russia itself.
Historically speaking.
Well, yes, but nobody is arguing America needs to surrender Hawaii or Alaska (or all of the other 48 states, tbh), even though they were both acquired via imperialism, and more recently than Crimea was. The fact is that Russia, just like America with Alaska/Hawaii, is capable of enforcing it’s ownership claim of the region, and it’s really not that unreasonable a demand to be making that the rest of the world consent to their ownership of it. It’s just the price of peace. America is simply trying to stifle their trade potential by proclaiming that Ukraine, who is not remotely close to a threat to American power, is the legit owner of a highly powerful port.
Board games as proof? Crimea was part of the USSR sure ,but it was transferred to Ukraine so it’s no longer part of Russia, nothing to do with Nato, Russia wants to expand and they should get fucked.
Did Russia agree to the transfer to Ukraine? And regardless, that’s clearly not expansion, it’s reclaiming lost territory.
Russia never owned those territories.
That was the USSR, which does not exist anymore.
Russia has no claim to Ukraine, no matter what their propaganda says.
Otherwise Italy should own most of Europe and Africa, since the Roman empire did.
And by your logic, Russia should be confined to the territories of Khanate of Kazan as conquered by Ivan the Terrible.
Russia is the same country as the USSR, minus the parts that left. They are a global superpower, like it or not they get a say in what happens globally. And the idea that a critically important part of a superpower can just be convinced to leave it is insane. What did America do when a large portion of our country (one which also contained all of our access to our southern waters, btw) tried to secede? We went to war with them. Russia is doing the same. Why is it wrong when they do it?
There is a difference between invading and turning Gaza into a concentration camp.
You’d think the Jews would know better.
Oh right, Gaza the concentration camp where children are forced to work with no pay, women are raped then killed and trains are used to carry people for 3 days without water/food to a gas chamber killing everyone.
Oh oops that was the Holocaust. Silly me, it’s just that the media told me Gazans are experiencing the holocaust so I mixed the two up.
You left out the part where Israel has been murdering Palestinians and stealing their land for decades, and turned Gaza into an open air prison. That kind of thing pisses people off.
That still doesn’t make any of this right.
You missed the part about Israel fighting Arabs and Palestinians for their very existence since 1948. It’s not a simple situation. Whereas Ukraine is simply a megalomaniac trying to expand his power at all cost.
You missed the part where Arabs had been on that land for over a thousand years before the European Allies decided to sent their Jews back “home.”
Also, fuck Putin.
You’re missing the parts where Romans and Arabs colonized Judea, racism against Jews in the region were prevalent in Arab and reached a peak in Europe with WW2
It’s easy to blame one side or the other depending on what you consider and what you don’t. Maybe the solution is, I don’t know, a two-state one that considers both?
Agreed.
All I’m saying is no one is innocent here except the civilians being executed at an appalling rate.
Palestine isn’t a country so it’s not their land
Also it was stolen from Israel a thousand years ago so they are just taking it back
Focus on the murdering part it’s bad enough that you don’t need to make up reasons
its true, they should both be getting the same, punitive treatment
I don’t support Israel, but the Russians attacked unprovoked. They’re not 1:1.
So he’s… not dead?
Saying goes it is a doppler
