I’ve been a long time Redditor and an Apollo user for about a year. I even paid for it. The main draw for me was the lack of advertising. In the back of my head I kept thinking that it couldn’t last. Reddit is losing revenue from the lack of advertising views. It didn’t
To me, Reddit’s sky high pricing for the use of the API is intended to kill off apps like Apollo and for its users to move to the advertising filled web site or its own app, which I’ve never used.
If Huffman came out and said this was a revenue move right off would everyone be as upset as they are? Are people upset because Huffman completely mishandled the move or because they got their ad free experience turned off? If Reddit had an app the same quality as Apollo only with ads, would they be OK with it. I’ve only used Apollo so I can’t speak to the other apps.
I can’t blame Reddit for wanting to make money. It doesn’t make a profit. Investors have to keep pouring in money to keep it going. They’re going to want to see a return on their investment at some point. Usually they cash in on an IPO, but IPO’s are generally only successful if the corporation looks like it will be profitable or at least the stock price continues to go up. That’s how capitalism works.
In my case, I probably would have left regardless. I can’t stand adds in my feed. I probably wouldn’t have heard of lemmy or kbin if there hadn’t been such an uproar. So I’m glad it went the way it did.
The option they should have gone for was to put the onus of 3PA on users: Either you pay for reddit premium or you use the app. This would have worked out more and I absolutely would pay a fair price to keep using Boost. This is what they should have done.
But, they didn’t. And then offered a tight window, and that’s why we’re here.
I wouldn’t have even hesitated to buy Premium if it was the only way to use third party apps. That seems reasonable. I paid more for a completely pointless Snoo bobblehead like a decade ago, at least Premium in that context would provide some actual benefit!
Venture Capital isn’t compatible with asking people to pay what something is worth. You might find a fair price that keeps enough users to make the business sustainable, but that’s what they derisively refer to as a “lifestyle business”. VCs are looking for 100x profits in a couple of years, and that necessitates slimy revenue models. Nothing else works.
I definitely wouldn’t be as upset as I am right now. I would consider paying to be able to continue to use the service.
However, right now, I wouldn’t come back to Reddit even if they called of the whole thing and decided to leave free access to the API. I have zero trust in Reddit after all that happened. To be honest I’m kinda glad it all went down like this. At least we got to know their real colors.
I would be happy to pay a fair price to remove ads and gain access to 3rd party apps. They should just bake that into the Reddit Gold perks.
I used the main Reddit app and was planning on going back after the protests were over but everything spez had done since then has made me uninstall the app
The thing that I’ve seen pretty consistently from both RIF and Apollo devs is that they’re not disputing the fact that reddit needs to start making a profit. Nobody’s (seriously) complaining about what was free becoming not free.
The fact is, if this was purely about money, they’d be willing to negotiate on price. The price they’re asking is ~70x more than imgur, which hosts images WAAAAAY heavier to host than text, and links etc.
If it was solely about showing ads, they could have given 3PAs access to reddit ads via the api, and enforced showing them.
There are several ways this could have worked for everyone.
Reddit wanted to kill 3PAs. That’s the only logical conclusion here. Hell, if they’d come out and said THAT, as well as fixing the problems with their own app first, I might even have been able see their side of it. I would still be pissed, but it’d be more understandable than this very blatant Twitter-esque death-by-pricing thing they’re trying to do.
The price they’re asking is ~70x more than imgur, which hosts images WAAAAAY heavier to host than text, and links etc.
The apollo dev got a very discounted price for the imgur api. Still, general imgur prices are about 3-4 times cheaper than the amount reddit is asking for now. That is if you stay in your quota. Exceeding the imgur quota costs about $1 per 1000 read requests, though. The value talked about for reddit is a flat rate of $.24/1000 or ~$1/3000 requests, no discounted plans are known to me.
The fact is, if this was purely about money, they’d be willing to negotiate on price.
That still holds true, though.
The reports were that the amount they are asking 3PAs to pay is 29× the revenue that they would make from a user in advertising. Astonishing.
But I agree. If they had started this out simply by saying “no more 3PAs except for approved accessibility-focused apps”, the protest would never have been able to get the steam it did. That statement would have cut the legs out of the accessibility-focused concerns (even though it doesn’t actually adequately address VI users’ needs). It would have removed the possibility for the huge drama that happened with their awful communication with and lies to 3PA devs. It would have completely mitigated bot devs’ concerns. And it would have made the NSFW issues completely moot. With those issues addressed, there would have been nothing for the protests to really hook on to in quite the same way.
I can’t stand ads, but ad blocking is easy enough. I decided to leave because Reddit is only leaving me with terrible interfaces to use. I browse it to pass time on my phone, I’m not about to lug out my whole laptop or move over to a desktop to keep using the site with old Reddit + RES. All the terrible CEO comments since the announcement just make it easier because the tiny, niche non-Nazi alternatives are suddenly large and bustling platforms.
There would have been no outrage if Reddit valued its users. If they came out and said they were going to start charging (a reasonable amount) for API access but were giving developers until the end of the year to prepare no one would have batted an eye.
Most would probably migrate to the Reddit app for free. Some would just start paying to use the app of their choice and we’d have moved on.
Reddit showed their true colors which was a big f you to the free labor and free content producers of their platform.
I would’ve paid $5-$10 a month to Apollo had this all been handled professionally. Instead I’ve deleted Reddit , fired up an rss feed app and I’m also here now. There’s a handful of communities I haven’t found a suitable replacement for but I’ll live.
FreshRSS is great, if you like self-hosting, and you like a web interface
Lemmit.online is using Reddit’s rss feeds to share the posts to the fediverse. Worth giving a look.
Feedr is nice on Android
Check out Inoreader (plus Reeder (iOS) for an A+ phone/mac/iPad experience). I’ve found Inoreader to be by far the best RSS reader, and I’ve been using it for years now. It’s UI is very slick and unassuming, but has a ridiculous number of settings and preferences if you really want to dial in your experience
If their official app and “new” reddit layout ain’t shit there won’t be so many users using paid 3rd party apps to begin with. Fix your product instead of force killing competitors.
To get rid of the promoted and ads on the reddit website I started using https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/reddit-ad-remover/cgipdekhdobcdhnobaimhlapmhpgdpjl
If he’d announced that they were going to force the app developers to share ad revenue or charge users a reasonable monthly fee for ad-free access and share that with Reddit, I think the backlash would have been far less.
But that’s not what Steve wants. He wants to get all the ad revenue AND be able to track user activity to sell to the data brokers/advertisers. This was never going to be a situation that we users found reasonable.
I pay YT premium, I can listen to hours and hours of music, or watch hours of videos, plus I can download them and go to a poor connection area.
I don’t mind they hooked me with a free service and then offered me the option of ad free.The move from reddit is if you start to use more the service, if you want to see more posts, if you have more subs, if you upvote/downvote more, if you send more messages, if you comment more, if you post more, if you have more moderation actions to help a sub stay on focus and remove spam then you have to pay more.
Edit: damn it, I again replied to a comment instead of the post hahaha
Personally I used to pay for YouTube Red (back when it was called that). I stopped in protest against YouTube’s changes to their partnership programme screwing over smaller users (when they introduced the recurring viewership hours to qualify for partnership). That was the final straw after their abhorrent attitude towards copyright over a long period of time.
On Android, formerly Vanced, now ReVanced, get me everything I could want out of the official app with YouTube Premium, but for free.
I HATE ads with a passion. Even taught my kid from a very young age to put his hands over his ears, look away, and say “la la la!!” until an ad ends.
Once Vanced shut down, I was devastated. ReVanced really saved my experience, though, and I’m so thankful it exists.
Steve, in fact, was part of the BoD when Reddit stopped the revenue sharing scheme that some apps had up until… 2021? Something like that, don’t quote me on it.
For me, it didn’t have to do with ads at all. It was about Reddit charging exorbitant fees for the APIs needed for tools required to make moderation fun enough to actually do, combined with his actions related to 3PA devs and moderators after the fact.
Reddit could have invested in their API and made it an ad distribution platform; instead they invested in NFTs and let the API system remain a mess.
All the drama and pisspoor management by spez aside, ultimately the way I used reddit is through RiF. To me, that’s reddit. I can’t stand their official app and their official website is horrendous.
They forced my app to close down so I guess that’s that.
I stopped using RiF and consequently reddit in protest. I held out hope this was a shitty negotiation tactic by Reddit and they’d eventually back off somewhat. But they’ve tripled down on it.
This forced me to reevaluate my relationship with the platform and I decided to check out Lemmy kbin and mastodon. I also checked out some old forums I frequented before reddit took over.
I reinstalled a newsreader and set up RSS feeds for my favorite things.
Basically, I’m realizing I don’t need reddit as much as I thought I did. I actually have enjoyed the fediverse,beehaw in particular, more. I never used Twitter but mastodon has really great content and engagement as well.
I’m not saying I’d never go back to Reddit. I probably would if RiF somehow survived, but reddits lost its luster for me and I don’t trust it anymore. So why waste time actively participating there so I can have the rug pulled from under me again?
Reddit may not see a mass exodus like Digg or Myspace, but it’s been poisoned and over time the rot will set in and it will fester. This will be the moment people point to as the turning point.
I am almost a mirror-image of you regarding Reddit, except to me Reddit was Apollo rather than RIF. I too have cancelled Reddit Premium, which I paid to support a platform I used a lot. LIke you I am trying out the fediverse via lemmy, kbin, and mastadon; and, like you, I am enjoying mastodon and using it much more than I ever used Twitter. Finally, like you, I have gone back to RSS feeds and old forums I used before my Reddit habit overshadowed them. And other people I know are doing the same, albeit they tend to be the more techy inclined.
I used to use Tweetbot to read my Twitter feed. I would read the latest 100 tweets every day. When the plug got pulled on the app, I just stopped reading Twitter at all and don’t miss it. In the case of Apollo, I scroll through my feed for an hour or more if I’m bored with nothing else to do. I mostly looked at funny, wtf, and photos. It was mostly a waste of time, however entertaining it might be. So when Apollo shuts down, like you, I may not need Reddit as much as I thought.
Didn’t reddit used to be profitable? I think we should start by asking what decisions they made that reduced their profitability. Is it the video player that nobody asked for? Deciding to self-host images? Developing an app that nobody wants to use? It seems to me like they put themselves in this position.
I’m not entirely sure why Reddit was going to charge outlandish fees for the third-party APIs. Looks like none of the apps are actually going to pay them, so he’s not getting anything out of it. It’s really a combination of pushing them out of the market and then being a smug little bitch that really nailed it in the coffin for a lot of people.
They don’t want the developers to pay anything. They want the developers gone so that all the users are monetizeable through ads.
The outright lies about blackmail didn’t help.
i don’t think they were trying to make money off of the API changes. like others are saying, it has to do with AI and they figured they might as well take the chance and knock out 3rd party in the same swoop so that they can funnel more people onto the official app
they can data harvest much better that way
AI has nothing to do with it other than a convenient, topical scapegoat.
I feel like AI being the reason doesn’t hold up particularly well from a technical standpoint. From my searching, web-scraping is completely legal. It’d be slower, but a massive dataset is still very collectable.
Plus building a web-scraper is so easy now. Funny enough, generative AI like chat gpt can get you like 95% of the way there in just a few minutes.
Though, none of the reasons they’ve stated so far seem to hold up to scrutiny.
It’s slower, but to use an API requires you to customize your system to use each different sites unique API. It would be a massive development undertaking, for such a small benefit that it would never pay off. For an LLM, you only need to read each page once, you just wait til a post is a month or so old, and essentially all discussion has stopped, and you will get everything you need. So “fast” isn’t really a concern at all.
You can pull much more data much quicker through the API than some sort of HTML scraper. These LLMs need a lot of data and reddit is a big site.
It would have been perfectly possible to charge a different rate for AI harvesting than for Reddit Apps.
of course, but they wanted to kill 3rd party apps without explicitly saying “we’re killing 3rd party apps”
this way they can (or at least they thought they could have) had plausible deniability saying stuff like “we tried to work with them” and this is essentially what they tried in the first couple of days
Every user they lose they’ll replace with 10 bots.
This isn’t about longterm thinking, this is a push to control how many “users” they can put on their IPO docs. Steve and the current board (VC monies) are going to cash out and what happens to Reddit after the IPO is the least of their worries.
Every fewer third-party app is one fewer datum that they are lying about the number of real, fleshy users. This has nothing to do with AI training or APIs or anything but legitimizing bot activity to pump up the numbers.
Facebook and google have been selling ad “impressions” to people of questionable realness for decades at this point.
Looks like none of the apps are actually going to pay them, so he’s not getting anything out of it.
But that is exactly what his goal was. If he really was interested in working with the 3PA devs, this would have been handled completely differently. The fact that it was handled as it was, with essentially zero engagement between the company and the community, and with essentially zero flexibility on the part of the company on the implementation, is pretty clear evidence that their goal all along was to drive the 3PA’s out of business.
Reddit killed internet fora. By being easier and cheaper, while making no profit.
If they suddenly do want to make profit?
The terms change, there are alternatives.I agree. They built a better mouse trap and now they want to go back to the old one because they figured out they can sell cheese. The better mouse trap still exists.
