I’ve been a long time Redditor and an Apollo user for about a year. I even paid for it. The main draw for me was the lack of advertising. In the back of my head I kept thinking that it couldn’t last. Reddit is losing revenue from the lack of advertising views. It didn’t
To me, Reddit’s sky high pricing for the use of the API is intended to kill off apps like Apollo and for its users to move to the advertising filled web site or its own app, which I’ve never used.
If Huffman came out and said this was a revenue move right off would everyone be as upset as they are? Are people upset because Huffman completely mishandled the move or because they got their ad free experience turned off? If Reddit had an app the same quality as Apollo only with ads, would they be OK with it. I’ve only used Apollo so I can’t speak to the other apps.
I can’t blame Reddit for wanting to make money. It doesn’t make a profit. Investors have to keep pouring in money to keep it going. They’re going to want to see a return on their investment at some point. Usually they cash in on an IPO, but IPO’s are generally only successful if the corporation looks like it will be profitable or at least the stock price continues to go up. That’s how capitalism works.
In my case, I probably would have left regardless. I can’t stand adds in my feed. I probably wouldn’t have heard of lemmy or kbin if there hadn’t been such an uproar. So I’m glad it went the way it did.
Nobody is against them making money, but personally it was just the iicong omn the cake. The censorship was my biggest issue, then they started requiring emails, etc…losing my apps and then threatening mods was it.
While essentially killing off 3rd party apps is disappointing, I could’ve understood and been willing to switch to the official app and maybe even pay monthly for no ads and more features.
What made me leave is how poorly Huffman and the company treated the developers, moderators, and users.
For developers:
- Reddit went back on their word about no API cost changes this year
- Lied about making the API cost reasonable
- Gave developers very little time to adjust
- Treated developers and their apps as freeloaders instead of as a source of growth for Reddit when they didn’t even have an app yet
- Blatantly slandered Apollo’s developer
For moderators:
- Reddit treated moderators as if their input didn’t matter despite providing free labor for the site
- Framed them as being power hungry for disagreeing and protesting Reddit’s decisions
For users:
- Reddit treated users as if their input didn’t matter despite Reddit being a user-generated content site
- Treated their contributions to the site as Reddit’s property, not their own
- Essentially said users are just a bunch of whiney babies who are powerless, have no willpower, and will visit the site no matter what we do
Also, even besides Huffman showing his true colors as being a total asshole, it just makes Reddit’s poor leadership SO evident. How do you become such a popular site with free content and free moderators, and still can’t make money? How do you manage to turn a great Reddit third-party app into a buggy mess of an official app? Why are you constantly prioritizing what you think users want instead of just listening to them? And now you essentially just told all of us: “fuck you, I own you and your content, and I am entitled to to make money off of you.”
If I put on my tinfoil hat, I think Reddit might have a long-term plan here.
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Hike up the API price to a point where 3P apps like Apollo will have to shut down, making them worthless, after so much was invested in them
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Get users upset with the lack of features on the official app
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Make the 3P app developers look like bad guys
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Wait a month or so
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Publicly offer to buy a popular, and now worthless, 3P app ^for way too little money^, in order to use the features for the official app
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Point out that the 3P dev is a monster if they don’t sell, since it would help users so much, and Reddit is a Community, after all
they hurt themselves here though because Apollo’s dev gave them the buyout option and they said he was trying to extort them. I doubt any of the app developers would be too keen on this now without covering their ass to pretty extreme extents
They couldnt do this because apollo dev already offered to sell apollo for 10m, half the cost it would have costed them for continued api usage.
The precedent is already there to buy one and reddit missed it.
Didn’t they buy alien blue before that?
It was the most popular, before Apollo even existed I think.
They bought that, turned it to shit despite it starting from a beloved, yet now unrecognizable mess. Even if they bought Apollo, RIF, Relay, Sync and Baconreader tomorrow, their goal with the site conflicts with what people enjoy about using it and anything they do will be shittier and shittier.
People would always flock to another community focused app as long as that’s a possibility, so they decided to nuke the whole concept.If you are to believe that Reddit is setting the API pricing as high as proposed to eliminate 3rd party apps, rather than to recoup costs of allowing their existence (which I wouldn’t put it past them to lie like that to make it sound more palletteable), then it’s reasonable to believe Apollo’s existence doesn’t cost them 20M$. In fact I’d be surprised if it even costs them the 10M$ figure because Reddit’s reaction implies a number that high must be extortion.
From a game theory of greedy agents point of view, what is the number value of a worthless app? As in, if Reddit offered to buy Apollo for $1 right now, what greedy reason would there be to refuse?
“How can I trust you to even give me the $1 if you resort to slandering my character?”
Large corporations regularly buy up small firms to get their product. You may be less tin foil hatty than you think on that one.
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And to pile on top, Reddit has been around since 2005. Why is there a SUDDEN and sloppy push towards profitability? It’s like someone clued them in just recently that an IPO means you’ll have to publicly show profit/loss. The way they’ve gone about it suddenly and sloppily doesn’t scream long term plan, but instead a crash change.
Excellently said! Can I nominate you to represent me in the fediverse?
Mostly the same feeling. Was surprised how he “communicated” with mods, who helped Reddit to grow a lot.
The thing that I’ve seen pretty consistently from both RIF and Apollo devs is that they’re not disputing the fact that reddit needs to start making a profit. Nobody’s (seriously) complaining about what was free becoming not free.
The fact is, if this was purely about money, they’d be willing to negotiate on price. The price they’re asking is ~70x more than imgur, which hosts images WAAAAAY heavier to host than text, and links etc.
If it was solely about showing ads, they could have given 3PAs access to reddit ads via the api, and enforced showing them.
There are several ways this could have worked for everyone.
Reddit wanted to kill 3PAs. That’s the only logical conclusion here. Hell, if they’d come out and said THAT, as well as fixing the problems with their own app first, I might even have been able see their side of it. I would still be pissed, but it’d be more understandable than this very blatant Twitter-esque death-by-pricing thing they’re trying to do.
The price they’re asking is ~70x more than imgur, which hosts images WAAAAAY heavier to host than text, and links etc.
The apollo dev got a very discounted price for the imgur api. Still, general imgur prices are about 3-4 times cheaper than the amount reddit is asking for now. That is if you stay in your quota. Exceeding the imgur quota costs about $1 per 1000 read requests, though. The value talked about for reddit is a flat rate of $.24/1000 or ~$1/3000 requests, no discounted plans are known to me.
The fact is, if this was purely about money, they’d be willing to negotiate on price.
That still holds true, though.
The reports were that the amount they are asking 3PAs to pay is 29× the revenue that they would make from a user in advertising. Astonishing.
But I agree. If they had started this out simply by saying “no more 3PAs except for approved accessibility-focused apps”, the protest would never have been able to get the steam it did. That statement would have cut the legs out of the accessibility-focused concerns (even though it doesn’t actually adequately address VI users’ needs). It would have removed the possibility for the huge drama that happened with their awful communication with and lies to 3PA devs. It would have completely mitigated bot devs’ concerns. And it would have made the NSFW issues completely moot. With those issues addressed, there would have been nothing for the protests to really hook on to in quite the same way.
For me, it didn’t have to do with ads at all. It was about Reddit charging exorbitant fees for the APIs needed for tools required to make moderation fun enough to actually do, combined with his actions related to 3PA devs and moderators after the fact.
Reddit could have invested in their API and made it an ad distribution platform; instead they invested in NFTs and let the API system remain a mess.
If Reddit just charged the AI people for API access and left 3rd party apps alone I doubt anyone would have given a shit, but they had to go and two-birds-with-one-stone it. Then they insisted on digging their hole deeper by running their mouths and making the situation worse.
I suspect they have signed an exclusivity deal with some kind of third party to use the API. It could be for “AI” or it could be for more nefarious purposes.
That’s why it’s important to go back thru our comment history and replace them with linguistic garbage. To ensure Reddit can’t profit off our donations. I’m not in the business of subsidizing Reddit, after all.
“Plonked up behind the radio them ready the plastic manuscript who observe Jerry’s can.” Or whatever.
If I were implementing this nefarious Reddit I probably wouldn’t have edits wipe out the original Tatars data. It’s certainly not necessary to implement edits that way.
In fact, the editing log itself can be used as more data.
We actually know for a fact they don’t do it that way, since Reddit has already been caught undoing peoples “delete” edits after they’ve gone
OpenAI CEO Sam Altman sat on the reddit board for years and was briefly CEO for 8 days.
OpenAI is another dumpster fire waiting to happen, then.
Why else would they make access to OpenAI/ChatGPT/etc so cheap? So others can build businesses on the tech that get locked in before they jack up the price.
We’ve seen this rodeo plenty of times now.
Spez knows he can create ‘traffic’ of user comments and answers with AI. He also knows he can use AI to moderate subreddits. He doesn’t care about the quality of the site, just the numbers that get him his payday. He’ll burn it to the ground and cash-out, leaving a mess in his wake.
The widespread adoption of AI isn’t to do anything better, its to do something worse than a human does, because people will buy close enough. The WGA is 100% right about AI, and I say this as an avid Midjourney user.
The ai people aren’t using api
Since spez said that one objection was that other people were making money where reddit wasn’t, one thing I’d have been okay with is if the API worked only for those who were reddit premium. (To be open, I was already paying for the lowest tier of premium.)
Although this is a reasonable solution, it’s also reasonable to just let the apps charge a subscription and pay the API fees, which is what the app devs planned. The only issue is that Reddit set their API fees so high that the app devs can’t possibly charge enough to make it profitable, certainly not in the time frame they were given.
They would have gone straight to scraping if they couldn’t reach a deal. Sam Altman is on the board of reddit. He knows which way the wind blows there.
LLMs are already relying on web scraping and always have. They are getting data from the entire Internet, do people really think OpenAI is doing individual integrations with every single website throughout the Internet?! Are Google and Bing doing that, too?
It’s complete FUD.
There may be some complexity with legality here though. Obviously Google and other search engines already have most of Reddit’s content indexed, but there are some legal arguments as to whether they can use the content to create derivative works.
If Reddit opens up its API and specifically allows AI companies to use the content to create LLMs and other AI tools then from a legal point of view they may find this much more preferable to facing potential legal action further down the road.
Reddit could reach the same agreement without an API, too. Legality isn’t going to change because of the technical implementation.
do people really think OpenAI is doing individual integrations with every single website throughout the Internet?! Are Google and Bing doing that, too?
This is such a great point that I hadn’t even considered. These API changes will have exactly zero effect on LLM’s and similar services.
If he’d announced that they were going to force the app developers to share ad revenue or charge users a reasonable monthly fee for ad-free access and share that with Reddit, I think the backlash would have been far less.
But that’s not what Steve wants. He wants to get all the ad revenue AND be able to track user activity to sell to the data brokers/advertisers. This was never going to be a situation that we users found reasonable.
I pay YT premium, I can listen to hours and hours of music, or watch hours of videos, plus I can download them and go to a poor connection area.
I don’t mind they hooked me with a free service and then offered me the option of ad free.The move from reddit is if you start to use more the service, if you want to see more posts, if you have more subs, if you upvote/downvote more, if you send more messages, if you comment more, if you post more, if you have more moderation actions to help a sub stay on focus and remove spam then you have to pay more.
Edit: damn it, I again replied to a comment instead of the post hahaha
Personally I used to pay for YouTube Red (back when it was called that). I stopped in protest against YouTube’s changes to their partnership programme screwing over smaller users (when they introduced the recurring viewership hours to qualify for partnership). That was the final straw after their abhorrent attitude towards copyright over a long period of time.
On Android, formerly Vanced, now ReVanced, get me everything I could want out of the official app with YouTube Premium, but for free.
I HATE ads with a passion. Even taught my kid from a very young age to put his hands over his ears, look away, and say “la la la!!” until an ad ends.
Once Vanced shut down, I was devastated. ReVanced really saved my experience, though, and I’m so thankful it exists.
Steve, in fact, was part of the BoD when Reddit stopped the revenue sharing scheme that some apps had up until… 2021? Something like that, don’t quote me on it.
What this is really about and people are just starting to realize is: the interests of the shareholders and CEO who want to get rich is not compatible with a volunteer created, volunteer run, and volunteer modded site. People aren’t eager to do unpaid work just so the CEO can get rich. This API stuff is just exposing it.
The weird thing is that they ARE compatible. They could have charged slightly more per user than they make on the official app and everything would have been fine. This move reduced shareholder value and user value.
Reddit makes $350m a year in advertising revenue, it is in theory a fantastically successful business that could make plenty of profit for its shareholders.
The problem is solely down to them raising more and more capital the latest at a $10B valuation. Because of this they need to increase the revenue even further to try and justify the inflated valuation and that is what has led to the latest situation.
What really told me that reddit was squandering its revenue sources was when they shuttered redditgifts two years ago. Maybe there were issues behind the scenes, but they had commissions from the storefront and from elves, and something reddit has never been particularly good at: Good publicity. And instead of figuring out how to make it profitable, they just killed it.
They didn’t even bother to answer questions why.
It was at that moment I knew the current leadership was rudderless, and now everyone’s finally come around to it.
I am sure they could use less drastic ways to rise revenue, clearly without spreading lies about Apollo creator and alienating moderators. There is a right way and a wrong way to do things. And than there is very wrong, Reddit way to do things.
A slight profit is compatible, I get it you can’t run at a loss. But it’s no longer “look at this neat thing we can do with everyone”. They’re not building goodwill with the unpaid creators and mods. Everything they’ve said and done is oozing with “Get back to work you unpaid peasant! We need to IPO and get rich!” They’ve shown nothing but disdain towards mods and users.
Why not slightly less? That would make more sense to me.
A user on a third party app isn’t as valuable to the company. They miss out of all the valuable spying and tracking they can do by installing their own software on your phone. Plus just the presence of this party apps means you can’t demands extra permissions on your own app and tell users to deal or suck it (in nice PR speak). So it makes sense to charge TP apps more for reducing the “value” of a given user.
Charging less is basically subsidizing third party apps out of your own pocket - which was exactly the complaint in the first place. Although it would’ve been better to gradually ramp up prices to less-subsidized and eventually to a profitable partnership.
The other thing is that they’ve just handled things so incredibly badly. Limited communication largely directed at third-party media sites, erratic rules changes and enforcement, doubling down with heavy-handed admin actions.
I think that even beyond a need for profit they lost sight of why they have substantial value in the first place. The majority of their value came from their community which made “the front page of the internet” a pretty honest claim. Their software isn’t worth billions, but the front page of the internet sure is. They should have had a substantial community engagement department specifically to kiss ass and build relationships with mods (and users via AMAs) so that open lines of communication existed - and they probably should have taken control over key things like inserting an employee as top mod of the top 50 subs (make it standard practice for hitting top 50, offer cool extra services like a visit to HQ and such for the mods so its like they “win” rather than “reddit seizes control” even if that’s what it is).
Instead they stayed way too hands-off and basically treated their community as an afterthought. The poor communication made me feel disrespected as a user, so I can only imagine what its like for the mods who put far more time and effort in and are in the direct line of fire of erratic admin actions. I mean, this isn’t even hard. Just make a vague corporate statement that you’re “very sorry” about all the “confusion” and you’ll be “putting changes on hold an re-evaluating while you work with various parties to come up with solutions”. You make some token concessions and then do 80% of what you were gonna do anyway, 1-2 months later. Its dishonest and shitty but it’s not rocket science to take some of the fuel away from the fire. Like, do they even have a PR department or… did they completely forget that the community even mattered?
If Reddit has an employee on staff as a mod that can approve posts, then they lose safe harbor protections. Anything that mod approves is considered representative of Reddit, giving them editorial control and causing them to be handled more strictly. https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/us-9th-circuit/1856011.html
Further, if Reddit gave bonuses to mods, then mods would be considered unpaid employees. Any kind of “swag” or quid pro quo for being a mod of a big subreddit increases the chances that those moderators will be considered unpaid employees by the Department of Labor. AOL famously got in big trouble for giving free/discounted internet access to their volunteer moderators. https://casetext.com/case/hallissey-v-america-online-inc-sdny-2002 (Settled in 2009 for $15 million in back pay.)
Combining the two is terrible news for Reddit and would make their business model absolutely unsustainable. Every mod would be an employee and every post would be representative of Reddit as a company. If a mod approves a link to copyrighted material, then Reddit could be sued.
IMO the issue that people are upset about, and as a result all the publicity going on, is just related to how much they wanted to charge people for the API.
If they rolled out something reasonable for pricing, and allowed people to use their own individual API keys in third party apps on a free tier, I think a few would have complained here and there, but otherwise it would have been fine.
Obviously they need to make money to pay for costs of running things somehow, there’s nothing wrong with that.
Let’s not forget that they also nuked NSFW content on the API, which is at least 50% of the uproar. Nobody likes to mention it, but it’s a big reason that a lot of people use Reddit.
And how little time they were giving. And quite frankly, the incredible entitlement spez has shown in the wake of the incident. And honestly from the start as if reddit had cause to be frustrated OpenAI built something cool off of Reddit users’ content. As if he built the whole of reddit and all its content without decades worth of free hours from users and mods alike.
He doesn’t want to build a platform for communities. He and his company want personal enrichment he already feels entitled to. He’s making that pretty clear. Otherwise, IPO tomorrow and use it as a cash infusion rather than a liquidity event.
It wasn’t what they did it was how they did it. If they wanted to I’m sure they could have worked out a comprise where everyone stayed happy.
A good way to foster resentment is to profit off a bunch of mods and devs donating time for love of community and then spit in their face by forcing them out. I think it’s one the most blatantly asshole things I’ve ever seen a corporation do, one for the history books.
I do wonder if it will really make a difference. I think it might be their undoing. Social media users are a somewhat fickle bunch and can move on to the next big thing, that’s historically been the case.
They weren’t going to make everyone happy. They want vastly more money, and every way of squeezing money out of a thing makes the thing suck more. They certainly could have fucked the PR aspect less severely, but no business in history has ever had anyone enjoy the part where VC investors try to get their returns.
I used the main Reddit app and was planning on going back after the protests were over but everything spez had done since then has made me uninstall the app
For me it wasn’t about the money, I pay for plenty of things in order to escape ads. The CEO all but came out and said that they don’t care about anything except money… That’s just business and I understand it, I don’t like it, but I understand it.
The issue I saw was Reddit made no attempt to understand the situation third party app devs were in, or to honestly work with the devs to find an equitable solution. That much has been clear before the CEO began to gaslight both the devs and the users about it.
I used reddit 10x as much as Netflix, if not more. So I’d have been more than happy to pay the same price for all eternity to access the api.
Hell they could have given out individual api keys tied to usernames so that regardless of the app, you’d be fed input from the free tier (with ads & rate limiting) or pro tier (unlimited and no ads). That would also help to curb malicious bots and reduce the number of alts in the game.
But no, they chose the nuclear option and are now choking on the fallout. And Huffman’s erratic and hostile response further down the line really sealed the coffin for me.
/u/spez really is the fucktard in the pool here
And Huffman’s erratic and hostile response further down the line really sealed the coffin for me.
Yep. Before the AMA, I was defending just doing the two day blackout, rather than, as many were suggesting, blacking out for a longer period. My reasoning was you can always escalate later if a compromise isn’t reached. Then Spez opened his mouth, and I (and so many others) realized “this fucker has no interest in compromising” and totally changed my position. Since then, I support any and every form of protest that has been devised, including leaving the site for good (and mostly already) on June 30th.
Same. Only a select few communities I browse now, waiting for them to move on
Yep, he went down the deep end with no chance of ever restoring his public image. As an investor, that would make my skin crawl… They should sack him before the end of next week and revert all changes, hoping the exodus can still be stopped. Which I doubt, but there would be hope, at least.
To get rid of the promoted and ads on the reddit website I started using https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/reddit-ad-remover/cgipdekhdobcdhnobaimhlapmhpgdpjl
The controversy started when their API fees were astronomically high as to constructively end all 3rd party apps.
I think the real anger started when Steve Huffman lied about the Apollo developer and the dev started posting the recordings to prove that Huffman was lying through his teeth.
After that, Huffman stepped onto multiple rakes as he does a poor job of crisis management. They don’t know where the value from their product comes from.
That and the outright lies Huffman said about Christian!
That really did put the nail in the coffin for me.
He lied about that. What else will he lie about? How many other innocent people will he accuse of wrong-doing in the future? He’s obviously shown that he is very openly willing to do so.
No thank you.
