PARIS, Nov 27 (Reuters) - Six teenagers go on trial behind closed doors on Monday, accused of involvement in the beheading of French history teacher Samuel Paty by a suspected Islamist in 2020 in an attack that struck at the heart of the country’s secular values.
The teacher had shown his pupils cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad in a class on freedom of expression, angering a number of Muslim parents. Muslims believe that any depiction of the Prophet is blasphemous.
Islam is so touchy. Even pointing out Mohammed was a bandit and a pedophile gets them going and that is just straight facts anyone can get from reading about his life.
I believe every extremist is touchy. Fuck religion!
They’re cowards is what they are. Plain and simple.
Religious extremists are the touchy ones. Plenty of Muslim folks who go on with their lives in peace.
I do agree that islamist extremists are the worst.
In Europe there are more Muslim refugees though, than, for example, in North America which gets more regular Muslim immigrants.
It’s a specific problem in Europe with an influx of refugees from war torn and poor countries who are often troubled, more extreme in their religion and potentially less educated (because they fled from shitty countries).
I guess it’s more connected to those circumstances than with Islam in itself. Statistically, more educated and better off people are less religious. I suspect that’s the same with Muslims?!
Yeah, at the most, the Muslims in my life would’ve said “hey I find that disrespectful can you please not” and go about their day.
Give them power and let’s see how they behave.
You don’t get to say “some Muslims are in peace”. Muslims are part of a religion that is causing a lot of troubles.
When someone is part of a big organization, like the police, one does not get to say “not all of us are pigs”. If they are not raising their hand and telling on the shitty people causing problems, then everyone is the problem.
Everyone says this bullshit until it’s their group causing the problems and then all of a sudden they deserve mercy and understanding for how complex their situation is.
Most Muslims are decent people. If they weren’t, the west would be in a continuous state of violence. People like you are just racist assholes looking for any excuse to justify your prejudice.
You don’t get to judge an entire group by the worst members without it coming back to bite you in the ass some day.
If I were part of a religion that is so extrem that is killing people and attacking members of the LGBT community, etc, I would 100% leave said religion/group. Its not really that hard to do it. A decent person wouldn’t be a part of those kind of groups.
I mean… you’re a citizen of a country, right?
Once again a stupid analogy. I can’t be not a citizen of any country. You can be not a member of any religion.
Quick glance tells me you’re mexican… Which Cartel do you work for then?
Cartels aren’t a religion that are trying to expand over the world.
It is honestly, with all due respect, a very stupid comparison.
Oh, so it’s okay to belong to a group of people whose open tenet is murdering and enslaving people, but a religion that teaches against those things, but has a few nutjobs is somehow not?
Strong logic there. Completely free of bias. 🙄
Who is saying that cartels are ok?
Also… “a religion that teaches against those things”. You are really brainwashed.
You’re exusing cartels: organizations that are absolutely and unashamedly expanding and taking over the world, simply because they aren’t a religion.
That may not be your intended meaning, but it’s definitely connotated.
Dogma doesn’t have to have a God to be dangerous.
It’s just as stupid as your moronic comparison, cartel enabler. If you really cared about the damage the cartels do to the world you’d leave Mexico. We don’t want to hear your excuses.
I left Mexico many years ago, lol. Now you leave your religion of peace.
Just saying; your take wasn’t exactly enlightened either.
To be honest, the Nationalist Christians (Nat-C’s) that we have here at home are pretty fucking unsettling. They know that it’s their god-given right to be in charge of everything and they will “save” everyone by trying to force their twisted interpretation of religious texts onto the populace with zero compromise, because “that’s god’s plan”.
They’re just as bad as Islamic extremists; they’re just committing their violence in more official channels and in a slower fashion, up until the day that they manage to get an unshakable hold on power (read: establish a “theocratic” dictatorship, like the Republic of Gilead from Handmaid’s Tale, which they took as an aspirational goal instead of a cautionary story).
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Yep. They’re killing people through legislation and propaganda, instead of more directly observable ways. But it’s still clear
It was a class lesson on freedom of speech… oh gee.
In a way he was an amazing teacher
i’d just like to comment on this comment section
since i’ve joined lemmy some months ago i’ve seen the nuanced discussion i was so relieved and happy to find here degrading. this section ilustrates that well. the nuanced and cautious are still there, but are being briganded against in a way i don’t think they were before
maybe i’m sounding like an “eternal september” elitist here, but i do like open discussions on the internet, with all the ugliness that’s bound to happen. i just really hope with all my heart that, in the midst of it all, the good things don’t go away
When you have a significant number of people on the internet that are here simply to poison dialogue “for the lulz” or whatever other bullshit reason they use, this is how it will always end up.
When I was in high school I screamed in the middle of biology class “those are not gonads, those are balls!”. I still feel bad about it because the teacher was so nice and I was a nightmare.
I feel a bit better.
This is terrible news. Obviously no one needs to be killed for such a thing.
Still, I can’t help but thing it’s also ridiculous to draw pictures of Muhammad. No one knows what he looks like. These people just use Islamophobia to post racist caricatures.
Also, Muslims love their prophet more than most people I know love their mothers. THIS IS NOT TO EXCUSE THEIR BEHAVIOR but seriously Muslims view their prophet like a big brother. Like literally love the guy like family. There’s 2 billion Muslims. You only have to really anger one or two to get attacked. Once again, not an excuse for them. This is murder.
This is a thing in France, we have caricatures for everything. Muhammed isn’t an exception, and shouldn’t be. It’s not islamophobia. This was a freedom of expression class too, it should be talking about controversial topics.
No one knows what he looks like.
My understanding is that the point is that he’s supposed to be an “every man” kinda guy. Mohammad could be any of us. If you depict him, it makes us not him.
So apparently he’s also a gang of murderous psycho teens. Or I guess the kids stopped being him once they saw the picture and reverted into psycho murderers
Sad little cowards can’t live in a free world where people can have their own thoughts on belief.
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I’m sorry what? 2.5 years? Is that a joke? Those animals should never set foot outside prison walls again no matter their age.
The five other minors to be prosecuted, aged between 14 and 15 at the time of the attack, will be charged with premeditated criminal conspiracy, or ambush.
They are suspected of having pointed out Paty to the murderer or helped monitor his exit from the school.
They weren’t involved in the killing, they are guilty of pointing him out.
So? They are still responsible for his death
How so?
If you play by felony murder rules, they’re just as guilty since they participated in the planning and actively participated (by waiting for / stalking the victim and pointing him out to their co-conspirator).
In some places if you help plan and participate in a crime that results in a death you’re equally culpable of the murder - even if you weren’t in the same room as the killing. Escape car drivers frequently get death row for a murder that happened in the course of the crime.
The dude showed up at their school and found some 14 year olds that would tell him who the teacher was for money.
He also told them he was just going to make the teacher apologize, not cut his fucking head off, my guy.
Slow your roll with sticking some tricked dumb kids to prison for life over some shit they had no control over to begin with.
So they were responsible for it
Yes, they are responsible for pointing, not killing, glad you understand now.
Which part of “helped monitor his exit” did you not get? They stalked him with the intent to assist the assassination. By your logic, many people aren’t actually criminals because they’re not the ones who actually carried out the murder, they just directed it.
I’m not saying they should get the death penalty but what they did was heinous and deserves more than 2.5 years.
And yet, still they are not responsible for killing and beheading him, the adult who did it is.
Nowhere does it state your xenophobic assumptions about how you feel over the event.
For all they knew he was going to simply speak with the teacher, or maybe kick his ass.
Tell me, why do you assume so freely that all of the Muslim kids were deeply involved in the beheading itself? I find that very interesting…
Where did I say they were directly involved in the beheading? I know xenophobic is a big word for you but you should still look up the definition before just tossing it around like that.
You speak of me needing to improve my literacy and yet you’re the one confusing deeply involved with directly.
Unless you’re just backpedaling and attempting to obfuscate the point, now.
We hung nazis that didn’t directly kill anyone
Did we?
The only source I can find on such a thing is post Nuremberg trials, and it was ten nazi generals that definitely deserved it.
I did find a source for 23,000 out of 35,000 deserting Nazis were killed by their own party for fleeing war, so maybe you were thinking of that while being a nazi?
Yes but there’s still limits on how long you can put minors in prison for certain things
Which is fair but 2.5 years seems pretty short for a religious beheading
They are getting 2.5 years for pointing out the teacher, not for beheading.
Correct
So children should go to jail for more than 2.5 years for pointing out a teacher?
Maybe, depends on the scope of their involvement. Most European countries have 10 years max for minors, even for premeditated murder.
They are not the perpetrators, and were kids at the time. Kids are easily influenced, and make mistakes, a lot of them.
In this case those mistakes ended up causing the gruesome death of an innocent teacher, that is why they are on trial. If someone is guilty, it is their parents, who failed to educate them, and those who exploited those weaknesses to put them under their influence.
They are not the perpetrators, and were kids at the time. Kids are easily influenced, and make mistakes, a lot of them.
Im sorry but my mistakes as a kid were breaking windows not beheading people.
Again, they didn’t behead anyone
In this case it is more selling information about the victim to the perpetrator.
The tribunal task will be to evaluate if they knew what the perpetrator was about to do, in which case their punishment will be harsher, or if they didn’t.
Kids are easily influenced, and make mistakes, a lot of them.
And adults aren’t? Tired of this nonsense that people reach a certain age and all of a sudden they can tell right from wrong.
Were you one of those kids who couldn’t tell right from wrong? I wasn’t, and neither were most of my peers. It’s a cultural issue, not an age one.
I mostly agree with you.
It is more of a legal shortcut, but it is a useful one if we don’t want to have to do psychological expertise and possibly counter-expertise for every case to determine if someone is mature enough or isn’t.
I know some man-childs that never got past a teenager maturity, as well as teenagers who have more maturity than many “adults”.
But laws have to be precise for many reasons, and the age of legal responsibility has many reasons to exist other than this case.
Still, adults are mostly less immature than kids, as they had the time to mature (albeit not everyone, unfortunately).
More life experience means it is easier for adults to discern bullshit from truth, and thus their responsibility is considered as full in the case they make mistakes.
A kid tribunal task is as much to discern how mature a kid is as it is to sentence them to a just punishment.
Edit : merging two answers to the same comment.
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Let those of us who weren’t involved in a religiously charged murder cast the first stone.
Wait…
I don’t know for you, but most of us aren’t. Throwing stones at them will only lower us at the same level as those who beheaded others for their fanatical ideology. Let justice do its work.
Na dawg, I’m poking fun at your “look, we all make mistakes” sentiment when we’re talking about fucking murder.
Sorry, simply assisting a murder.
And because you seem confused, this is what it means to cast stones in this context: https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/cast+the+first+stone
Better believe I’m comfortable casting this particular stone.
I’m not confused, I know this idiom very well.
I was writing from a juridical view point, not from an emotional one. Like everyone I want them to be punished, but in accordance with their fault, not with the emotion, albeit legitimate, that teacher murder created. Once again, they are kids, or maybe should I say teens, with limited life experiences, easily swayed by those who offer them a seemingly strong identity, like every teenager strives to find at that period of their life.
A strong punishment is necessary, but not as strong as if they were full fledged adults.
Usually in France, at that age, sentences are in most cases cut in half of what an adult would get. Exception for life sentences, in which case it is the “surety period”, during which they cannot be released no matter what, which will be cut in half.
These kids haven’t killed anyone. A weird guy told them who is the teacher who’s insulted Muhamad, here is 300 EUR, I’ll teach him to not do it again
They couldn’t guess what was about to happen, and now live with the guilt and trauma which is a worse sentence than any jail time
You’re presuming a state of mind, just as the other people you’re arguing against are. We don’t know if they regret it or not and never will.
Did you just read the headline and get outraged without pausing for even a second to think “2.5 years for murder and mutilation can’t be right, I better read the article”?
No I read the article, they got upset because someone showed Mohammed (allegedly) in class and then got him murdered over it. They are just as guilty as the psycho that actually beheaded him and are unfit for western society. I don’t care if they rot in prison or on a psych ward for mentally ill people they just should never be allowed back into society
unfit for western society. I don’t care if they rot in prison or on a psych ward for mentally ill people they just should never be allowed back into society
Because people never change, especially 14 year olds. /s
You sound pretty eager to be xenophobic to me. They haven’t been convicted yet, but you’ve already decided they committed an act equal to beheading, with full knowledge of what was about to happen, and deserving of being imprisoned forever, without needing to even hear their side of the story (which could easily be “I was 14 and a murderer demanded information that wouldn’t have been difficult for them to find elsewhere”).
We aren’t in the courts to decide that, the evidence is never going to be public for us to make that assumption
None of that happened and you’re starting to look a lil racist, bruh.
On 16 October 2020, a week and a half after Paty’s freedom-of-speech class, Anzorov was driven to Paty’s school by an alleged accomplice and waited outside the gates of the school. He asked a number of students to point out the teacher.[58][23] He paid two students, aged 14 and 15, around €300 to identify Paty; the two then waited with Anzorov for two hours until they sighted Paty leaving.[59] A Friday, it was the last schoolday before a two-week holiday.[60] Anzorov had told them he intended to “hit” and “humiliate” Paty, according to Jean-François Ricard, in order to “make him apologise for the cartoon of the Prophet Muhammad”.[59]
He paid two students he’d never met before money for the information after telling them he was just going to hit him and shame him a bit.
C’mon bruh, you can do better than this.
Religion ruins everything. Also here is a painting of Mohammed
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That breaks the 2nd Commandment!
Don’t worry, his gun is just out of frame.
Nothing to add, just thought a cock n balls would improve it, seeing as he was a pedo
seeing as he was a pedo
I’m no scholar. An example of this please?
Search for Aisha, a child wife he took. If I remember correctly he married her at 6 years old, but waited until she was 9 to ‘consumate’ the marriage.
but waited until she was 9 to ‘consumate’ the marriage.
So he was a gentleman.
M’ohammed tips headscarf
Yeah he only put his stuff between her thighs and rub to cum before 9. Waited full 2 years. Fine gentleman.
Ah yes, well. That’ll do it I suppose.
Did we just become best friends?
Off to the Guillotines!
Seems like a fair and reasonable response to a cartoon.
The religion of peace strikes again.
Religion of love!
Really don’t know what to make of this comments section. I feel like if this were the World News subreddit, this thread would have already been locked and about 90% of the commenters banned, either by the mods or the Reddit admins.
It’s surreal to see comments so hostile towards Islam, on Lemmy of all places… And some of these are arguments I often see racists throw around.
Lotta fucing dumbasses in here, don’t bother…
*fucking
🙏
This is the best summary I could come up with:
PARIS, Nov 27 (Reuters) - Six teenagers go on trial behind closed doors on Monday, accused of involvement in the beheading of French history teacher Samuel Paty by a suspected Islamist in 2020 in an attack that struck at the heart of the country’s secular values.
The teacher had shown his pupils cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad in a class on freedom of expression, angering a number of Muslim parents.
One of the minors is a 15-year-old girl who allegedly told her parents that Paty had shown caricatures of the prophet in her class.
Paty, 47, was killed outside his school in a Paris suburb by an 18-year-old assailant, born in Russia of Chechen origin, who was shot dead by police soon after the attack.
France is home to Europe’s largest Muslim minority and has suffered a wave of attacks by Islamist militants or their sympathisers in past years.
In the wake of Paty’s killing, some teachers acknowledged they censored themselves to avoid confrontation with pupils and parents over religion and free speech.
The original article contains 293 words, the summary contains 173 words. Saved 41%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Maybe these people would be happier moving to a country where their religion is forced down from the government? Maybe go there?
You’re incompatible with western society so change or get the fuck out.
And before anyone jumps down my throat I’m speaking specifically of those who don’t accept that things like freedom of speech includes things they don’t like.
freedom of speech includes blatant disrespect of a religion you’re not a part of, got it
Whatever your religion is buddy it can choke on all of my cock
religion is a choice and that choice is killing people its ok to be disrespectful to public practicers of religion.
we should be laughing in their faces and mocking them because its embarassing
The part of that that breaks down is that one group’s interpretation of it being okay to kill people isn’t necessarily another person’s religious practice. Mocking the latter is like treating everyone who eats bacon like a psychopath who enjoys slaughtering animals.
And religion isn’t always a choice for everyone. It should be, but isn’t always.
Yes, 100%.
I really can’t tell if you’re being serious. Just in case…
The prophet Muhammad was a real piece of shit etc etc etc.
See? I’m allowed to do that. Thankfully I live somewhere I don’t have to be in fear of saying things like that.
Yep.
You can’t have freedom of speech without the freedom to offend. They go hand in hand.
They are here to expand their religion, not for escaping their country or freedom of speech. They are using freedom of speech to make themselves a victim while expanding their religion in the back.
all religions are cancer. ALL. period. I can criticise any fanatic of any religion the same way I criticise the fanatics of the religion I grew up and was brainwashed to follow. I was able to leave. For some people it may be more difficult because of the situation in their country. However, the people who migrate in mostly atheistic west countries, they continue being fanatics by choice.
However, the people who migrate in mostly atheistic west countries, they continue being fanatics by choice.
There are Arabs who migrate to Europe because they’re not allowed not express their disbelief in their home countries.
