I’ll wait for evidence and/or more reporting, but unless something comes out this is pretty damning.
Fuck every hypocrite that has conntributed to this nonsense.
The cognitive dissonance in the comments is pathetic as always. Fuck the IDF but also fuck Hamas. Anything negative on Hamas is instantly discredited until the proof is unquestionable.
So much good faith in Hamas when they don’t deal in good faith themselves:
CAIRO, Dec 25 (Reuters) - Hamas and the allied Islamic Jihad have rejected an Egyptian proposal that they relinquish power in the Gaza Strip in return for a permanent ceasefire, two Egyptian security sources told Reuters on Monday.
Hamas is 100% continuing this war just like the IDF is, they are both disgusting and are using the Palestinian people as the pawns
I agree. 100%. Like YES, Israel is being maximum scum by retaliating with excessive force. We get it, they have all the “1st world countries” funding them. They keep murdering people with a crazy multiplier compared to Palestine.
But to pretend that Hamas is not at all culpable or disgusting for their OWN actions is not it.
Hamas has an official police force?
They are literally the Gazan government.
If you ever start thinking your life is miserable, think about people living in Gaza. It’s truly unfair that they have to live these lives…
On one hand, they have to deal with Hamas - atrocious terrorists who turned Gaza into the one of the most impoverished regions in the world. They stole everything they could and even behave terribly towards the citizens.
And on the other hand, they have IDF here which don’t care very much about their lives and caused quite a lot of damage, as well. Add to that Israel’s current right wing government and situation cannot be worse.
Oh surely you think it cannot be worse? It still can. Pretty much no one from Gaza can leave to another country because no other country will accept Gazans. Maybe because for the last 18 years they have been indoctrinated into thinking that killing a Jewish is the most saint action you can do.
On one hand, they have to deal with Hamas - atrocious terrorists who turned Gaza into the one of the most impoverished regions in the world.
Correction: Israel turned Gaza into one of the most impoverished regions in the world.
No, it was Hamas. I know you would love to blame Israel for everything but this was mostly Hamas’s work.
Why would I blame Hamas for something that happened 3 months before they were even elected?
What are you referring to?
The blockade that put Gaza in this state started 3 months before Hamas was elected. From that point there’s not much a local government can do. Gaza simply doesn’t have the land or resources to live independent of the rest of the world.
Gaza doesn’t have the resources? Throughout last 18 years, billions were put into Gaza and Israel even allowed it. Shared net worth of Hamas leaders is around 11 billion. They have the resources, they just use it for building bombs and tunnels. They could have built second Dubai with that money…
The security measures by Israel are actually fully valid. Imagine your neighbor builds bombs they plan to shoot at you. Would you just chill and allow items from which your neighbor can build bombs go in?
The siege has led to shortages of basic items such as food and fuel. It has also stymied Gaza’s potential for long-term economic development. Chronic problems, such as access to education, healthcare and clean water, have become more pronounced.
Since the beginning of the siege, Israel has launched four protracted military assaults on Gaza: in 2008, 2012, 2014 and 2021. Each of these attacks has exacerbated Gaza’s already dire situation. Thousands of Palestinians have been killed, including many children, and tens of thousands of homes, schools and office buildings have been destroyed.
Rebuilding has been next to impossible because the siege prevents construction materials, such as steel and cement, from reaching Gaza.
Over the years, Israeli missile attacks and ground incursions have also damaged Gaza’s pipelines and sewage treatment infrastructure. As a result, sewage often seeps into drinking water, which has resulted in a sharp increase in waterborne disease.
More than 95 percent of Gaza’s water has been rendered unsafe for drinking, according to the UN.
Plans to improve Gaza’s water quality have been thwarted by the ongoing power crisis. Water projects are among the largest consumers of electricity. Without enough power to maintain existing water and sanitation systems, it is impossible to build new ones.
Many homes in Gaza rely on electric pumps to push water to the top of the building. No electricity for them means no water.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/3/14/a-guide-to-the-gaza-strip
That was all before Oct 7th
Gaza doesn’t have the resources? Throughout last 18 years, billions were put into Gaza and Israel even allowed it. Shared net worth of Hamas leaders is around 11 billion.
Do you understand the meaning of a blockade? Money is meaningless if you can’t use it to buy things.
The security measures by Israel are actually fully valid.
Israel is explicitly and intentionally keeping the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse, by their own words. This is a humanitarian disaster before you even get into the specifics of how they’ve rejected peace over the years.
Truer words man… Palestinians have it rough. Honestly I can’t see it improving under Hamas in any scenario. Keeping them poor and in pain keeps Hamas in power.
Perhaps when Israel take control they’ll do the smart thing and pump some money into the region…it’d be a hard sell for any government though after Oct 7.
They will pump money into it but I am afraid it can end just like west bank did.
On one hand, they have to deal with Hamas - atrocious terrorists who turned Gaza into the one of the most impoverished regions in the world.
Why are Hamas “atrocious terrorists” but Israel “don’t care very much”?
Pretty sure they’re both terrorists, and add committing genocide onto the Israeli side.
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Hamas has genocide as its openly, publicly stated goal.
So at least they are honest about it.
No they don’t. They once had it in their charter in the 80s but updated it; and have called for a two state solution for nearly 20 years now. They even took the step of recognizing Israel, only for Netanyahu to move the goalposts. Meanwhile Netanyahu and the Likud party have genocide as their openly, publicly stated goal of destroying the nation of Palestine.
When did they recognize Israel? They’ve offered it as part of negotiations but so has Israel offered Palestinian Starbucks as party of negotiations. Each side included unacceptable inclusions to the other.
This may not seem like it but it is definitely a perfect example of a skewed and one sided narrative that this site is exposed to all the time.
So, your argument is that an agreement by the prior state that was since rejected by the current one is the fault of the current administration which was elected in reaction to the failure of the prior Palestinian state and decent into terrorism invalidates all the reasons to terrorism coming out of the current Palestinian state? If that sounds confusing it’s because it is and it’s missing several hundred tit for tats that built up to the worst terrorist attack Israel has ever experienced. Reacting solely to that is also ignoring how things were progressively getting worse since the initial election of Hamas.
The real issue is that the bias in the article you posted is self evident. It eliminates literally all the context around those decisions and includes only those decisions. A list of all the times that any Palestinian authority rejected the peace process without context would be just as biased but you won’t find one outside of official Israeli channels.
No, my argument is that Israel has been in complete control of the Occupied Palestinian Territories since 1967, after the ethnic cleansing of 1948 and brutal military law enacted on the Palestinians since. Early Zionists like Ben Guerion and later the State of Israel have always coveted the whole land of Palestine and only wielded peace process as ways to further land grab. Not too dissimilar to what America did to the Native Americans.
I’ve read a lot of other sources, this article is just pretty on-topic for the history of the ‘peace process’
If you want to learn more from both official Israeli documents, accounts from Israeli military officials, Arab sources, and also oral history to get a more complete picture than just info from official Israeli channels try these books by Ilan Pappe. Try your local library or library Genesis for a copy.
Books
The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories. London: Oneworld Publications. 2017. ISBN 978-1-85168-587-5. Archived from the original on 14 October 2023.
Ten Myths About Israel. New York: Verso. 2017. ISBN 9781786630193
https://mondoweiss.net/2018/01/examining-myths-israel/
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine (London and New York: Oneworld, 2006). ISBN 1-85168-467-0
A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples (Cambridge University Press, 2004), ISBN 0-521-55632-5
I dare you to go read their current charter. Not the one from the 80s.
Do you want the section where they declare their dedication to violence? Or perhaps the section where they use “from the river to the sea” as an explicit call for genocide?
The charter was toned down. Instead of saying they want to kill all Jews, now they only want to kill all the Jews living in Israel.
But their leaders say it best: we will repeat October 7th until Israel is destroyed.
Calling for Israel to be destroyed is not antisemititic, it’s antizionist.
And honestly a fair call.
To be 100% clear: are you saying that it’s a fair call that they are separate concepts, or are you saying it’s a fair call that Israel should be destroyed?
How about this section?
- Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
I’m sorry that you’re so down with colonialism that resistance groups fighting against oppression make you so uncomfortable. You’re whining about “Hamas calling for the genocide of Jews” yet you’re watching the supposed “Jewish homeland” (read: Jewish ethnostate) commit genocide on the people of Gaza. This to me says that you care only about Jewish life and very little or not at all about Palestinian life. You’re a racist, as all true Zionists are.
Where as Israel has genocide as its less loudly stated but vastly more achievable goal.
Disregarding all politics, what kind of heartless bastard does something like that?
ACAB applies internationally.
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It’s 2 groups of people who want their own state on the same piece of land.
Religion is a side aspect at best.It seems quite some Israelis believe it’s their God given land, and Hamas don’t like jews. I think that puts religion quite up on the list.
Yup.
People who grow up believing that when the innocent die, they go to heaven.
They simply don’t value human life the way rational people do.
Very few wars have good guys. And this entire conflict is two sides having an Olympic competition to be the shittiest group on the planet
The terrorist kind
The ones waging this fucked up war. Hamas and the IDF can fucking rot.
A story with zero evidence?
And Israel has been killing so many Hamas but they still openly have police patrolling the streets?
Why is this source even allowed? They provided no real evidence other than pointing to Channel 12.
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Is there a video? I can’t see it on Channel 12, only snapshots of it. Maybe because I’m on mobile.
Zero video or photo evidence, all claims lead to a single unreliable israeli propaganda site called Channel 12.
No mention of the boy on any non israeli “news” site.
What happened to talking about unreliable sources? I guess any IDF propaganda without evidence is completely fine but anti israel news with picture and video evidence isn’t reliable.
This is a weird story, just because it takes place in front a backdrop of widespread child death and social collapse.
The thing is, it’s STILL a tragedy. It just feels odd. Like reporting “American soldier from Illinois drowns during operation in Normandie” or “Woman killed in vehicular accident outside Bartertown”.
Like… that’s terrible, but they’re in the midst of complete social collapse. There’s no food or water, and also a kid dies in Gaza every 15 minutes. So again, it’s really heartbreaking that this kind – Ahmed Bracha – died. It’s just hard to figure how one writes an article about this particular child dying while apparently trying to get food among so many corpses of children trying to get food.
There needs to be a ceasefire. The siege must end. Hostages on both sides need to go home. This is truly atrocious.
CAIRO, Dec 25 (Reuters) - Hamas and the allied Islamic Jihad have rejected an Egyptian proposal that they relinquish power in the Gaza Strip in return for a permanent ceasefire, two Egyptian security sources told Reuters on Monday.
Neither side wants a ceasefire
I reject the framing of “Neither side”: there are not two sides, there are many.
First, I think what you mean is that the Netanyahu government and Sinwar’s Hamas don’t want a ceasefire. And technically, it’s more accurate to say that neither side wants a ceasefire along the terms offered by the other.
Secondly, though, I don’t support either of these two parties. I didn’t say “there needs to be a ceasefire when Hamas and Likud feel like it”. Both sides are currently run by war criminals, and the matter shouldn’t be in their hands.
I’m an American Jew, and my primary interest is compelling my president and government to stop providing material/logistical/political support for genocide. I want conditions on aid to Israel, and a formal declaration that the US position is that the war has gone far beyond securing Israel’s safety and is clearly destabilizing the security of Israel, the US, and the region (not to mention Palestinian noncombatants). And if Netanyahu and Sinwar don’t like it, that’s good because their interests are diametrically opposed to mine.
This is disgusting and should never happen.
True. But looking at the sources it most likely didn’t.
The original reporting this is coming do appear to be in Gaza, but are unattributed as to who filmed them. It’s also unclear if these videos were reported locally first and picked up, or if they were sent directly to N12.
So are you saying that someone in Gaza filmed this and went ahead and sent it to an Israeli news channel?
I think it’s more likely they were spread through the various Telegram “news” channels and then picked up after verifying the source or at least the video/images - checking for language/location/time/that they actually show what was claimed.
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They are not the same even if there’s bad guys on both sides. Israel is a rich state with an advanced military that tries to keep the other side in the relative stone age without any resources whatsoever. It is becoming clearer every day that this is meant to drive Gazans off of their own land, into Egypt or dead, doesn’t matter
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But then they’re not, are they? One is a supposedly civilized democracy and the other is brutally oppressed by the first. This “both sides” stuff is trying to ignore that one side hass all the power here to end the conflict and the other is just trying to survive. In such a situation you have to acknowledge that actions of Hamas and Palestinian are not completely free but a result of the situation Israel put them in. You can’t blame Palestinians for resisting their genocide. Of course things get ugly, they know what’s up
No side has the power to end the conflict. Israel could stop killing palestinians and let Gaza be. This works until Hamas commits the next terror act against Israel. Both sides are bad because both want the total destruction of the other.
Stopping killing Palestinians wouldn’t be the end to the conflict, though, so it makes sense that it wouldn’t end hostilities. The end to the conflict would be the end of the ethnostate and institution of a secular society with equal rights to all that recognizes the right of return for Palestinians just as it does for people of Jewish descent. That isn’t a simple solution Netanyahu could do on his own, but it is definitely within the powers of the Israeli state, were there the will or desire.
Dude… you’re NOT who I was asking to weigh in here…. So fuck off. I don’t care for your bias in the matter. You’re not changing my mind. I was simply asking if anyone else is seeing this conflict as both sides suck.
Which they do.
If you don’t like it, move on.
What the hell, no need to get hostile
Who were you asking then?
You must have missed the part where I explained that. Let’s try again and see if this helps. So, what I was was:
Can I get a show of hands from the people that think in a larger picture…. BOTH sides in this conflict are the bad guys?
Hmmm…. It seems I was asking to hear from people that think there’s enough evidence and history to suggest that BOTH sides have been bad guys in this. Now, clearly, one with a decent enough reading comprehension skill, present company excluded- would extrapolate from this that I wasn’t looking to have people crying about how “my side is the good guys tho!”
I hope this helps.
You were asking for an echochamber, got it.
Israel and Hamas are both shit.
I only care about the Palestinians stuck in the shitshow.
Hamas and the PA don’t control countries. They control internally occupied territories under military control of Israel (different degrees in Gaza and the West Bank), which controls all imports, exports, food, water, travel, etc of the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Gaza is literally undergoing famine extreme water scarcity, with extremely limited medical aid by the design of Israel. Israel has been in complete control, either internally or externally, of Gaza and the West Bank since 1967
International pressure is how this ends, like it did with South Africa
What if I don’t think both sides are bad guys, but I do think both sides need to sit down and talk?
The concept of “bad guys” or “evil” is completely useless in international politics.
I just hope some day, they can manage what Germany and France did: Become friendly, allied nations after over a millennium of rivalry and constant wars.
Hopefully now we can all be on the same page that Hamas and the IDF are both bad guys, and they both hurt the Palestinian people. Hamas less so, but as this story illustrates, they are no friend to Palestinians.
This fits with a report from the beginning of the war that said Hamas had stockpiles of food, water, and medicine that they were keeping just for themselves while Israel tried to starve the Palestinians to death.
Palestine bad
The state of Palestine is not directly involved in this conflict.
the Palestinian people suffer greatly
