ok vegan
A lot of people in the comments can’t seem to make the distinction between what they have been fed since they were little and that they are used to, and what is good, or tastes good.
Most people who eat meat also eat some subset of vegetables and know they like/hate some other subset of vegetables.
The human body loves getting addicted to the unhealthy sugar carbs found in some plants, but our taste buds do tend to have a healthier long-term relationship with the umami balance you get more easily from meats and seafoods.
My comment was more about the knee-jerk reaction to new ideas and new ways of looking at things you may think you are already familiar with.
Well, yes. It’s doubly true with food because our tastebuds tend towards liking the foods we are used to eating.
This can only be because you probably have no idea how to cook and always eat and buy the same dishes and ingredients all the time. Otherwise I have no idea how you would arrive at that conclusion.
…well, I did audit a culinary program when my wife took it. I have restauranteers in my family. I could probably survive in a small restaurant kitchen. But I guess I don’t know how to cook :)
(fixed that part of my reply was to the wrong comment)
As for umami, it is the most stable flavor profile. You can get umami outside of meat, but like the protein you get out of meat, it requires a tremendous amount of effort and processing. And even then, my favorite way of making tofu involves just a little bit of bacon fat. And after I eat an incredible plate of falafal, I still want a nice cut of beef on the main plate.
I’ve probably eaten a well-above-average variety of meals from almost every culture (in some cases, blessed with the chance to eat in the country in question)… and yet, as enjoyable as the vegan ones are they are at best a shadow of themselves. The “not fake meat” ones are far better, but I rate food on quality. If “A+B” is simply a better meal than “A”, then that speaks volumes. Most vegan or meatless meals are “A”, and adding “B” elevates them. “B” usually happens to be an animal product.
Now IF I had some sort of moral or religious requirement to avoid meat, there are "A"s that would be good enough. I’ve had some Indian coworkers wow me with some of their meat-free food. But I ethically feel that eating meat is a good thing, so I have to admit that the best Samosa I’ve had was lamb and not veggie.
Sorry, I am not convinced. Someone who can’t find umami flavour in plant based food easily isn’t a good cook.
But I ethically feel that eating meat is a good thing
I am very interested in how you argue it’s “ethically” to breed lifeforms just to have them suffer and then eat them.
I kinda hoped moving away from reddit would lead to less “you hold a different view than me so you must be an absolute idiot”. I suppose I’m sorely disappointed.
I never called you an idiot or even implied anything like that.
Re-read your previous comment and try to consider why I might have taken it that way. Otherwise, have a great day.
Buckwheat (must buy eastern european kind) with diced avocado thrown in and a few pinches of salt is the shiznitz.
If I had to choose only one meal to eat for the rest of my life - this would be it.
edit: buckwheat prep: boil for 10-20 mins until most of the water boils away. Add some water if it boils away too soon. Leave some water/moisture to boil away while it’s cooling and not to get buckwheat burned and stuck on the pot surface. Throw in some diced avocado chunks. Add salt to bring out the buckwheat flavor. Done.
animal nutrition > plant nutrition. Gram for gram.
and there are essential nutrients in animals that you just cannot get, from plants.
1 cow can feed a whole person for a year.
The first two statements are bold claims to make I’d like to see some credible sources on this.
The last one which I’m also not sure is true one could put in context. E.g. as a comparison how much acres of land/ water/ energy does it use compared to vegetables.
I’m glad I really enjoy meat and dairy because as much as I want to eat other stuff I get really sick especially with any grain or fruit.
🤔 Maybe you have a gluten sensitivity or allergies
Which is weird. I don’t know how they even hold the fork.
Nice one, Doug
and there are essential nutrients in animals that you just cannot get, from plants.
Such as?
And where do the animals get them from?
Such as?
Omega 3 fatty acids, vitamin B12, vitamin D3, vitamin A, choline, etc…
And where do the animals get them from?
Many animals are capable of synthesizing these compounds, but humans are not. Our bodies stopped producing them since we could get them through our omnivorous diet.
Vegans can of course take supplements for these, so you can get enough of them, but you do have to think about it and take the right supplements to prevent deficiencies.
Omega 3 fatty acids
Flax seeds, walnuts, seaweed, Canola/rapeseed oil, Hemp seeds, edamame/soybeans, and chia seeds to name a few.
vitamin B12
vitamin D3
Allegedly lichen (that’s the source for all the vegan supplements), and this study claims that there is evidence for d3 in other plants
vitamin A
choline
etc…
Such as?
Vegans can of course take supplements for these, so you can get enough of them, but you do have to think about it and take the right supplements to prevent deficiencies.
This is a blanket truism for any diet. The average American diet, for example, shows a lack of Calcium, Iron, Potassium, Magnesium and Vitamins A, C, D and E
All those plant based alternatives are significantly lacking in most of those nutrients, and aren’t readily absorbed from plant based sources. You have to eat a shitton of them to reach the levels easily attained by eating a few animal products. Most vegans are absolutely deficient in them.
And for more you have Iron and Zinc which our bodies don’t readily absorb from plant based sources.
Calcium and cholesterol are signifantly lacking in vegan diets. Carnatine and carnosine. The other vitamin Bs.
This is a blanket truism for any diet.
Sure, but it’s extra true for vegan diets due to our bodies inability to fully digest most plants, and readily absorb the necessary nutrients from them.
Source? For pretty much any claim you just made?
Search engines are your friend.
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You’re the ones hurting innocent animals almost entirely for pleasure or convenience. Someone innocent getting hurt completely unnecessarily is good reason to cause a ruckus
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When an innocent victim is being harmed, silence is siding with the oppressor
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Many anti-lgbtq+ folks think that people who support or are a part of the lgbtq+ are insufferable, but here we are making progress for peoples rights.
If you want to be a bigot against nonhuman animals and their rights, i can’t stop you. But at least be aware that that’s what’s happening. People perpetuating injustice are never going to be happy with those against it no matter how it’s presented, so i’d rather just be as clear and concise as I can
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Ok, mind your own business when it comes to nonhuman animals. Paying to have them exploited and killed is the opposite of minding your own business, it’s forcing your views onto them, and i’m here to tell you stop forcing your speciesist views onto innocent nonhuman animals
You do realize stopping the meat industry altogether implies letting all livestock die, right? Very few people could afford keeping a cow or a pig as a pet and without the financial incentive there, farmers wouldn’t waste their money feeding the livestock. They can no longer survive in the wild.
I’m not in favour of how it works right now either, I’m all for more animal rights and better conditions, but to think we could just stop and everything would be nice is just plain naive.
Ok, so lets stop breeding them first. Stop paying people to force them to get pregnant.
Ideally we’d be able to release them into the wild or have sanctuaries for them, but that’s just not really possible. But if we stopped forcing more of them into existence then the remaining ones would all be killed pretty fast, which is far better than them and their children and their childrens children, and so on for the foreseeable future being killed.
More realistically, if animal liberation is achieved the population of farmed animals will gradually decline as fewer people support animal ag until there are only a few of them left, on sanctuaries or reserves or something, or they go extinct
Eat steak, eat steak eat a big ol’ steer
Eat steak, eat steak do we have one dear?
Eat beef, eat beef it’s a mighty good food
It’s a grade A meal when I’m in the mood.
-Reverend Horton Heat
Almost correct. It’s 6 dead animals in my case actually
What three animals everyone else eating? We’ve got chickens, ducks, pigeons, quail, geese, cranes, turkeys, cows, deer, elk, moose, antelope, armadillo, beaver, bobcats, coyotes, foxes, lynx, bear, bison, caribou, goat, musk ox, pronghorn, sheep, muskrat, opossums, pigs, porcupine, rabbits, squirrels, pheasant, chukars, and tons of tasty insects to choose from.
To get 80k they’re obviously counting variations. How many breeds of cow have I eaten?
I don’t have access to that many animals, nor that many plants. Maybe 5 animals and about two dozen plants.
I mean tbf, the majority of Americans don’t eat anything aside from chicken pork and beef, with the occasional turkey
That’s only true because turkeys aren’t that good.
Fucking heretic.
The amount of work required to make a decent turkey simply isn’t worth it when so many better poultry options exist. The best prepared turkey isn’t going to come close to a good roast duck.
Turkey is amazing when done right. Though I guess that can be said for damn near anything.
yeah they’re mid af
True, but the majority of Americans also eat only a handful of plants, especially when counting brassica as one plant.
Tell me with a straight face that you eat a fucking squirrel
Squirrel is actually pretty good. Some of those others though…
I’m from Kentucky, friend. I’ve definitely had a squirrel or two in my day.
Tennessee checking in - I’ve had squirrel as well.
THAT’S the one you take issue with? Lol
In not sure anyone is eating muskrat or opossum outside West Virginia mountain hermits, people born before 1890, and anyone who self identifies as a trapper.
Well squirrel was the funniest one within that context imo.
There’s parts of the Florida Panhandle where opossum is a serious delicacy. They even have a festival in August.
Huh. Weird.
Muskrat was classified as non meat for Catholics, so some people ate it, but anyone I know who did is dead now.
Eat the elongated muskrat!
I used to live in rural Kansas, so yes
Squirrel are fantastic.
They’re the least “gamey” out of most small game, less so than rabbit, and taste something like leaner dark meat chicken.
Awesome in a crockpot substituted for chicken in most recipes. Can fancy up squirrel with a Sous vide to make squirrel confit bánh mì tacos, or keep it old school and make squirrel pot pie.
I grew up eating squirrel. Its very common in rural areas,
“very common” is generous. I grew up in rural GA and never once saw someone actually eat squirrel
Dove, too.
Knew someone that tried to eat possum once, said it was the nastiest, greasiest thing he’d ever tried.
You have to catch the possum first, then corn feed it for about a month or two to get the nasty taste out of the meat before you eat it. So basically, turn it into a pet, then kill and eat it.
Is… is that actually true, or are you having a laugh? I genuinely cant tell.
but if its true, thats an awful lot of effort to make something nasty taste decent.
Its how they did it for the Possum Festival in Florida when I was growing up, so its a thing, But I can’t imagine anyone would do it just cause they like possum though.
Man the size of the of the ones in my neighborhood could replace our thanksgiving turkey if it wasn’t illegal to hunt them (I checked).
OP probably meant fish, octopus, and squid
lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats
Skip a bit, brother
Pls don’t eat fox or lynx, they cute.
Not after you cook them?
You forgot the many difference species of fish/creatures-of-the-sea.
I didn’t even go there because of so many tasty options to list!
And the slothes, and the orangutans, and breakfast cereals
and after eating all 80.000 you’ll still be hungry and feeling a bit weak…
face it, humans are omnivore we will always need both to thrive, balance is key
Except the science doesn’t support that a meat diet is nutritionally necessary.
Meat is not essential for human diet. However, many of the nutrients found in meat are essential for our health. Protein, iron, and B vitamins are just some of the nutrients found in meats. Meat provides our bodies with proteins, vitamins, and minerals that are necessary for proper muscle and organ function.
Sure there is a pill for everything but its the same as getting a IV with fluids instead of drinking. You will still be thirsty… again finding balance is the key, not every meal requires meat.
However, many of the nutrients found in meat are essential for our health. Protein, iron, and B vitamins are just some of the nutrients found in meats.
These nutrients are found in non meat sources as well. Meat doesn’t carry anything unique besides B12 because we wash the fuck out of our vegetables. Plant based diets make it pretty difficult to miss nutrients unless you’re just sitting around eating oreos all day.
You can get protein from plenty of non meat sources like nuts and beans. iron from cashews and oats you can get a nutritionally complete diet without killing sentient beings.
🤡
…and you could do the same thing and eat exclusively from the animal kingdom too.
If you don’t want to eat anything from the animal kingdom for your own reasons, cool. But when you start saying anything about what other people eat, imo you are no different than someone saying their religion/beliefs are best. Just don’t.
Humans are omnivores and always have been, society and technology today has only recently allowed humans to strictly become vegetarians on any kind of scale. Specific eating habits for moral reasons is a thing people who aren’t poor in first world countries have the privilege of doing. People in 3rd world countries/poor people are simply going to eat whatever is available to them.
Again, no one is wrong here, until one starts advocating that their way is best or better.
Omnivores who primarily didn’t eat meat. Until recently in non hunter gatherer societies at least meat was a luxury not a staple and it would still be that why if not for massive subsidies. Letting people do what they want doesn’t apply when there are victims which animals are.
Actually, they ate meat as much as they could. Just wasn’t always available without good ways to store it long term. But there’s a reason why they were called hunter gatherers and why humans evolved to be able to run long distances and are heat tolerant, because our ancestors ran down prey by exhausting it.
But as far as we know all people hunted at least until early agriculture started being practiced
I said in non hunter gatherer societies. In sedentary societies meat was a sign of upper class luxury. The fact the we have evolutionary advantages for hunting prey says nothing about how we should structure society one way or another.
People in 3rd world countries/poor people are simply going to eat whatever is available to them.
There is an entire such country with over a billion people in Asia where almost half the population is vegan/vegetarian. I’ll leave you to guess which one. It’s not about price, but rather accessibility. Their entire food economy is centered around it. Modern western diets push meat way more than others. You do NOT need it every single day.
Curry is definitely a very efficient and enjoyable way of making a vegetarian meal ;)
Just so you know, India is the largest contributor of undernourished people in the world so that fact might complicate the position you’re advocating.
true, love me both some cashew and beans too bad both are also horrible strains on the environment like 6k liter for 0,5kg cashews buth that is a whole other debate
Compared to the meat and dairy industry their environmental problems are minuscule.
a quick google says that for cashews its mostly the same (waterwise), sorry for crap formatting
Foodstuff Quantity Water consumption, litres Beef 1 kg 15,415 Sheep Meat 1 kg 10,412 Pork 1 kg 5,988 Butter 1 kg 5,553
Water consumption doesn’t say everything and cashews are an extreme example where water use is concerned. Greenhouse grass emissions, land use and many other metrics tell a wider and more accurate story.
Some of the vitamins you think are naturally from all meat sources are supplemented vitamins (just like taking a pill) into the feed of those animals
I’d go farther in saying that staying the fuck away from “industrialy” grown meat, and overly processed food is the way to go (for health). Reducing a maximum the meat consumption, and subside it for higher quality one is what’s necessary for the environment.
Going vegetarian (mostly) is even more efficient in both cases as long as the diet is well crafted for balancing all the body needs.
I haven’t eaten meat in almost a year and my fat ass is not exactly starving.
cookies aint animals are they 🤣
Sorry, was I supposed to eat them while they are alive?
No, just supposed to let them live
Says who?
Basic empathy for fellow sentient beings
I eat meat AND vegetables
Maybe don’t contribute to the commodification of sentient beings.
Wait do you think farming doesn’t hurt animals? I’m all for not eating meat, but pretending you’re not harming millions of insects, birds, and various mammals every time you eat a salad, you’re confused about how food production works.
The moral thing people can do is stop making so many people. And hopefully we find ways to produce food in a better way one day. But farming on the scale that feeds billions of people is absolutely fucked.
The majority of farming is for animal feed we could easily scale down plant and vegetable farming while eliminating animal exploitation and still see everyone feed.
Yeah. But not all of it. Factory produce framing is murder too.
Do you not see a difference if I step on an ant while walking or if I search for ants to drown for my pleasure?
We were taking about the death of animals.
If you have the choice to avoid certain types of foods that kill more animals than other types of foods I don’t see much difference other than a relativism. So no coffee. No tea. Only organic local foods that are in season grown on a small farm you personally know the SOPs of…
Btw I avoid meat almost entirely. I just think the moral righteousness I see from Whole Foods Amazon vegetarians to be wholly laughable.
In my experience, my organic local crops still involve animal deaths. And need cows to fertilize.
Balanced is simply better than vegan. Not everyone eats balanced, but people who do should not be shamed for it.
As long as you consume animal products you are actively participating in their ongoing mass murder.
Taking a step crazier, there are some animals that produce SO MANY calories that they represent less animal deaths per calorie than eating crops. Cows and Pigs are an example of that. I’m not going to get into hard numbers because everyone likes to hate on the other side’s numbers and my experience living in a farming community looks more like the numbers that make animals look bad. If you want to math it out, the farm industry estimates about 40 mouse deaths per acre farmed, and vegan advocates defend a 15 total animal deaths per hectare figure. Grass-fed cows are more death-efficient than corn (the gold standard efficient crop, if less efficient than potatoes) at around 10 deaths-per-acre of farmland. I’ve never seen an acre of farmland without at least 10 animal carcasses on it in a full growth+harvest cycle.
How many people do you estimate could be fed with grass-fed cows? What about the usage of water? What is with the thousands of hectare of forest that have been rode for pastures? What about the water you need for this type of farming? What about the fact that, if everybody would switch to a meatless diet you would need much less farmland overall?
I know why you do not want to get into hard numbers. Because they would refute your weak arguments.
How many people do you estimate could be fed with grass-fed cows?
Why are we going back to “grass-fed”? Do you have plans for that inedible plant waste that currently only ends up in animals or landfills?
What about the usage of water?
What about it? I’m not sure you understand how water works in agriculture/horticulture. Are you looking at “water footprint”? That’s its own complicated topic with as many landmines. I’d like to point out that cows are basically as efficient as nuts (or any real vegetable protein), and even the waterfootprint site just suggests having a mix of chicken and beef.
From your unkind reply to me elsewhere… If you had to pick between the environment and fewer animal deaths, which would you choose? I like to talk cows with vegans because a mixed diet with beef as the only meat clearly consists of fewer animal deaths than a vegan diet. 700,000 calories a death is pretty hard to beat. Environmentally speaking (and water), the best way to get protein is from animals that have to die and locally sourced chicken. Chicken are pretty death inefficient though, aren’t they?
What is with the thousands of hectare of forest that have been rode for pastures?
What about factory farms in third world countries with no safety controls? There’s as much of a veg-packing industry as there is a meat-packing one. Are you going to stop eating vegetables because SOME FARM SOMEWHERE does something wrong? The meat I eat doesn’t come from places where “thousands of hectares of forest have been rode for pasture”.
What about the fact that, if everybody would switch to a meatless diet you would need much less farmland overall?
You seemed to have backed yourself into a corner with a non-argument argument. Is this from a position that land usage is unacceptable? Because the world is nowhere near overpopulated yet. Is this from an environmental standpoint? Then land use is the wrong figure. Are you really happy if we use less farmland but produce MORE net GHG? We need more farmland per calorie of crop if we don’t have sufficient fertilization. But the fertilizers (synethic and manure) are the potential problem. To use less farmland overall, you need to produce more GHG overall. The balance for farmland is to have localized ecosystems of livestock fertilizing local plant farms which in turn use their waste to feed.
I’m gonna be crystal clear. I’m NOT saying beef is perfect. I prefer chicken and seafood from an environmental perspective. But I know a lot of vegans care more about “saving animal lives” than they do the environment. So I talk cow. I’ll concede it straight - beef should NOT be foundational to your diet any more than veganism should be if your goal is a single sustainable diet for the entire world.
You gotta let people be people. Shaming someone for their dietary choices is not cool. Not everyone shares the same beliefs and that is fine.
I personally believe that people should not eat meat unless they have what it takes to kill it themselves so they understand what goes into it.
When someones dietary choice causes huge amounts of needless suffering and death to the victim (the innocent animal that was exploited and killed) then that’s not “fine”. That’s a serious injustice that should be pointed out (at the very least)
Wait, fish can eat other fish, but I can’t? How’s that fair?
i know this may be a shock but fish haven’t reached the industrialization part of civilization yet. they do not have the capabilities to grow crops and harvest them and make dishes
I mean, meat is still murder, right?
So you’re using the “Lions rape and murder, therefore it’s okay to do the same.” argument?
Weak.
Think about the argument you’re making here: “Wild animals do X, therefore humans should be allowed to do X”. I hope you understand how horrible this argument is. Here’s a fun little list of things animals do:
- Eat their young
- Grape
- Murder each other for status or access to women
- shit on the floor in public
That’s your take on my argument. I haven’t extended it beyond the ethics of meat eating.
Than why am I not allowed to eat other humans? They are made out of meat, too. And why do we not allow animals to eat humans?
animals in the wild do a lot of unethical shit
Monsters, all of them. Someone should eat them, just to keep the others safe.
I’ll be thinking of you while I eat my steak today
Watch dominion while you eat
Nothing like going to my local farm and eating their meat while watching a movie about how GOOD the meat I’m eating is because some other meat is so terrible.
Thanks for the idea :) I’m gonna bring it up for the next local farm-to-table
I won’t think about you at all.
Some beliefs lead to immoral outcomes. I’m absolutely certain you can think of quite a few beliefs like that, right? Just picture a hill billy from Alabama, are all his beliefs fine?
In the end, morals is applied ethics, and politics is applied morals. We absolutely should legislate and not tolerate bad beliefs. The vague idea that “everyone has their own belief/opinion and we have to respect it” is a thought terminating cliche that makes the world a worse place. My dad wants me to respect his antivax beliefs, my grandfather wants me to respect his climate change denialism beliefs. Should I?
Well said, I’m glad to finally meet someone with your views that is able to express themselves.
I would say no to your question as those beliefs are contradicting science and they could cause harm to people. My beliefs do not contradict established science. I would also point out that not all rural Appalachian people are bigots, but I understand the point you were making with it. The difference in our views is that I don’t see animals as people. I understand their intelligent, and I believe some may be sentient such as elephants and whales. I am against killing elephants and whales.
If you are curious to see it from my perspective, participate in a somewhat poor analogy. Imagine someone came out and said they believe that killing a tree is the same as committing murder, that trees are people. After all, we have proven that they communicate with other trees and with mycelium in very complex and even selfless ways, probably to an even higher degree than we have yet discovered. This person is adamant that the trees are being oppressed and that we need to stop farming trees for paper products. They say that you are a bad person for causing unnecessary suffering and destruction to trees. But imagine that you disagree with them, you do not see trees as people. You understand that trees are living and communicating and you would like to see less cut down, but you still use them for firewood to heat your house. You see it as no less humane to grow them and cut them down than it is to let them die from burning to death or being eaten alive by bugs or disease.
Not the best example, and there are plenty of holes you could point out of you feel so inclined, but hopefully the core of it can grant atleast a small glimpse into how I see the issue we are discussing.
More info on the trees talking thing. I find it fascinating that they have a whole complex economy going on underground, trading and even investing resources. DYK that as a last act when a tree is dying, it gives its resources to saplings that are of a different species than itself before it goes. There’s some good podcast on it “radiolab, from tree to shining tree”. Also an quick Google search article. https://www.nationalforests.org/blog/underground-mycorrhizal-network
There is an obvious difference between kicking a puppy and cutting a tree. Trees do not have brains. Trees also cant move to get away from a predator, so why would they develop emotions we have? As complicated as my right hand is, it isnt sentient.
I see what you are saying about digging holes, there are a lot of arguments we could go on but the issue doesn’t need to be overcomplicated. The animal industry absolutely is terrible for sentient beings and terrible for the environment, and being vegan vastly reduces the plants or animals we kill.
Neuroscience agrees that other mammals and birds are able to experience suffering. They feel pain and stress and fear. The majority agrees they are conscious of their emotions even. To ignore that is a conscious decision on your side. You decide their suffering is worth it, but you don’t want people to confront you with it because it makes you uncomfortable. How ironic.
Lol it does not make me uncomfortable. Everything dies somehow, modern slaughterhouses are a lot more humane than mother nature.
Let people be doesn’t apply when it involves harming someone else. The harm done to animals is unnecessary violence and cruelty to living thinking beings.
That is your belief. I respect it. My mom is a vegetarian and I respect her beliefs, she would cook meat for us as she respected ours.
To me, the world has been eating itself since the beginning of life. Wild animals die horrible slow deaths from sickness to starvation over the course of days/weeks to being eaten alive or left to die, and that is the natural way of things. If you want to live you have to die. You don’t have to agree with me, but you should accept that different people see things differently than you.
I don’t expect a person at the bottom of the economic scale to feed their family with expensive alternatives that they don’t understand, and you should’t shame them for doing the best they can with what they have or what they know. If someone has the means to eat along with their beliefs, then more power to them. But shaming others is not the way.
Lead by example. Offer affordable alternatives, give positive publicity, not negative publicity, to let people see how your way can be good. Allow people to see your way. Don’t force them or they’ll just dig in deeper on their own beliefs.
Animals are being slaughtered they want to live. I respect your belief that the rock music is not garbage not your beliefs others should die for your sensory pleasure. Not consuming animal products is not an expensive luxury at all its way cheaper than meat and dairy and that would be magnified if the subsidies stopped.
If you believe that then you should work to change people’s minds, like actually research how to do that. The way you currently approach it will only make people disagree with you out of spite. Good luck to you.
Some people really think being a good example of the product of their beliefs and being obnoxiously obtuse and argumentative about their beliefs are equally effective at persuading others to think like them.
I can tell you no person ever in humanity was convinced by the latter.
Also who are you to tell me how to argue for animal liberation given whats been tried before has obviously not worked on you.
If you help kill living beings out of spite then I’m not the problem. If nobody is challenged when they kill and oppress others they will never stop doing so.
Oh boy I love leftists naivety
How is being against the mass slaughter of sentient beings “naive”?
I disagree with the comment on the point about it being a leftist naivety, but it is naïve nonetheless. Life feeds on life and all that. That they’re sentient doesn’t matter, some people argue plants are sentient too (not that I necessarily agree)
Plants aren’t capable of feeling pain and are not capable of subjectivity all science currently supports this. Even if you thought plants are sentient (they are not) the best way to lessen plant harm would include as a key precipice the end of animal agriculture.
Oh man, do I have some bad news for you…
You not understanding the pain or finding a way to measure the pain does not mean there is no pain.
This study shows nothing but plants respond to stimulus without a brain or nervous system to classify this is a pain response is reaching. Noting that the person interviewed in that article is a philosopher not a scientist and interprets that study very loosely. As I said already though even if you cede this ground you shouldn’t you just wind up at eliminating animal agriculture to lessen the “suffering” of plants as well as animals.
Most people, including leftists, are meat eaters.
Did you assume he was a lefty because he used a word with more than 4 syllables?
He has “anarchist” in the nickname lol
Nah.
Steak is delicious, and at the end of the day it’s only a cow.
A cow with thoughts of its own, with a family that wants to live as much as you do.
I’ve raised quite a few farm animals. They don’t have an urge to live. My goodness do they take every chance to get themselves killed…
Maybe a problem with your farm?
Except they blatantly do. Sorry your anecdotal experience doesn’t add up with the scientific evidence it must be wrong.
Is it still anecdotal if literally any farmer will tell you the same? Because they will.
A surprisingly large amount of effort goes into trying to keep the livestock from hurting themselves or getting themselves killed. That’s inevitable when essentially turn off natural selection, they end up losing any sense of self preservation. And why not, they do have multiple humans who’s entire career centers on keeping them alive until they’re ready for slaughter.
Are they in danger from hurting themself because they are stressed at their confinement maybe? They are slaughtered at barely a fraction of their natural lifespan.
enslaved animals try to commit suicide after being forcefully impregnated and kicked around and having their children stolen from them immediately after birth
wow i fucking wonder why dude
They are hearty for sure and that can be seen as an urge or will to live. Animals are dumb and have a shocking lack of self preservation. Are you talking about conscious ‘I want to live, I better not do that’ or ‘I will find a way to live in my circumstances’?
Animals experience pleasure and work to avoid pain. They have preferences and wishes and societies.
Plenty of foods are delicious.
So ethics aren’t a concern for you. How about the adverse health effects, or environmental impacts of the meat industry? Any considerations there, or is all about how delicious steak is to you?
You know there’s a lot of valid ethical frameworks that do not espouse veganism?
It’s safer to say “YOUR ethics aren’t a concern to him”, or to me. There’s a lot of philosophers who eat meat. And it’s not hypocritical. They just think you’re wrong. You aren’t God (and even if you were, God doesn’t get to decide ethics).
As for adverse health effects, I have known dozens of ex-vegans, one with an degree in nutrition, who left veganism despite their ethics, for health reasons. Generally speaking, it’s easier to “accidentally” have an reasonably ok diet with a full balanced mix of foods than it is for a vegan to intentionally have one.
or environmental impacts of the meat industry?
This is actually an incredibly complicated accusation, and unless you enter the conversation with the conclusion in mind, there’s not enough evidence/arguments out there to show that it’s “the meat industry” that’s the real environmental problem with our food industry. As someone who has shared a table with experts on a few occasions and then done some of my own armchair research, I’m convinced the two real problems are non-local food and factory farming. The former creates polluting logicistical overhead in transport and over-storage of food (fossil fuels for driving, non-recyclable plastics, etc) and the latter in willful destruction of environment to get more output cheaper, when we have plenty of room and plenty of margins to “do it right”
As for “to do it right”, part of doing it right is acknowledging that we have a compost/manure shortfall against crops NOT because we’re not producing enough manure but because we don’t have localized meat farms balanced in each area around their crop farms, and/or that it’s considered acceptable to use fertilizers despite the presence of manure that would better fertilize a crop. So the better answer? Local meat, and transition away from factory farms. And if you’ve got the land and the courage for it, keep some chickens for eggs and goats for meat/manure.
My 2c anyway.
or is all about how delicious steak is to you?
AND it is about how delicious a steak is to me. Have you ever walked a local farm with the people who do all the work? Helped them pick out the pigs for the meal? Known the love that is involved in the whole process, and the fact that the animals have it 100x better than they’d have had it in nature.
So yes, there is nothing like cutting into that pork chop having a REAL appreciation for the pig’s sacrifice, a real appreciation for the work everyone put into it all.
My ethical concerns go beyond raising animals, it’s the unnecessary killing them without their consent where it becomes problematic. Particularly when the “sacrifice” is for the trivial reason to satisfy the killer’s taste buds; when our taste buds can be satisfied in so many ways that don’t involve a victim.
And yes, I grew up on a farm where we raised all our own meat, including pigs. I’ve personally killed more animals than the average person, and I can say with certainty that every animal wants to live. To violently take another’s life “because it tastes good” and then go through such convuluted reasoning to justify it is very puzzling to me. It suggests a lack of empathy that seems to be endemic in our society. To speak of “the love” that is involved in the process doesn’t hold much weight with me. Serial killers love to kill, don’t they?
Understand that you don’t get to pen the ethical frameworks for the world, only for yourself. Even in ethical frameworks where “consent” and “killing” are given extreme weight, there are always other factors… And under most of the foundational ethical frameworks (Utilitarianism and Natural Law Theory come to mind), the argument for necessary-veganism is unsupportable.
So if you want to hate meat eating, say “I think it’s wrong to eat animals” or “my morals don’t allow it”. Don’t tell people who eat meat they don’t care about ethics, because that statement is simply dead wrong.
Particularly when the “sacrifice” is for the trivial reason to satisfy the killer’s taste buds
My biggest complaint about proselytizing vegans is the way they oversimplify the equation. Like every single person who ever eats meat for any reason stops with a fork in their hand saying “Is this bite of food more important to me than murder? YES IT IS”.
To violently take another’s life “because it tastes good” and then go through such convuluted reasoning to justify it is very puzzling to me.
With all due respect, reality is not as simple as you’re making it out to be. If you cannot see that there’s more to the discussion than “meat tastes good” and “animals don’t want to die”, then nobody can help you. But pretending that people use convoluted reasoning to justify it is an ignorant take, whether willful or out of being blinded by your own zealous position on the matter.
It suggests a lack of empathy that seems to be endemic in our society
You do understand that from a psychological point of view, human empathy and animal empathy are different factors and rationally exist in different amounts. Honestly, my personal take is that zealous vegans show less empathy towards fellow man than other people. LOOK at the way you’re thinking about supermajority of humanity? Why should I not see that as a lack of empathy as well?
And for that matter, there are several empathy-related disorders where a person’s mispaced empathy goes so far as to affect their relationships and quality of life. And again, that’s only for that rare person staring at meat on a fork commenting about how murder tastes good. The ones who simply categorize animals or plants or insects differently from you in their empathy don’t suggest anything of the sort.
Serial killers love to kill, don’t they?
Tell it to me straight. Are you so far gone that you cannot understand the moral, ethical, or psychological difference between being an actual serial killer and simply not being vegan?
So ethics aren’t a concern for you
Quite the opposite actually, as a farmer raising my animals ethically is a daily fact concern. I just don’t buy into your supposition that raising them is inherently unethical.
How about the adverse health effects
If I live long enough that eating meat is the primary thing that got me killed, I see that as an absolute win. I like riding motorcycles, I also like beer and sugar and baked goodies. I fully expect something else to get me well before a lifetime of eating meat has the chance. And I’m okay with that, I’d rather live a few years less and get to keep partaking in the things I enjoy. Plenty of people live into their 80s without giving up meat, and living into my 80s sounds plenty long to me.
environmental impacts of the meat industry
I believe that until nuclear is being seriously considered as the solution for clean electricity, then it isn’t worth worrying about which of my habits are supposedly causing the climate crisis.
Any considerations there, or is all about how delicious steak is to you?
I wouldn’t say it’s “all about” how delicious steak is. But I would say that in all of your examples “less steak” doesn’t seem to be the most prudent place to start, or to consider at all.
I’ve watched animals die in nature. Unless I’m talking to an anti-natalist, I cannot fathom how they think the life of a farm animal is worse than the life of a wild animal. To me, it comes back to a colorblind view of the trolley problem: “It only matters if we’re part of decision that leads to pulling the trigger”
I really feel like the preachy vegans have crossed some line and cannot be reasoned with. And the non-preachy vegans don’t go out of their way to have the discussion (more’s the pity, since they’d probabliy have a more balanced view before turning preachy)
If you dont want to contribute to the comodification of sentient beings you’d also have to quit your job unless it somehow has literally zero impact on your physical and mental well being. Anyone got a job like that?
You hate capitalism yet have a smartphone? hypocrite much
Imagine being a pro-capitalism vegan lmao
I’m not a capitalist that was just showing how absurd your argument was. Supporting the de commodification of living beings is basic praxis.
So your “argument” is, if we can’t be 100 % cruelty free, we shouldn’t reduce cruelty?
My arguement is if you want to reduce crulety, you have options to do so in your own life, which are far more productive than simply yelling at people online for not doing it the exact same way as you. You refusing to work somewhere you can support less exploitative practices because your comfortable in your job is no different then someone telling you they’re not changing their diet because it works for them. You have the means and the capacity to change yourselves, yet you’d rather yell at people online to change themselves.
I don’t yell at people. And I also don’t think a Meme is similar to yelling at someone…
Perhaps people feel much more attacked than what is the intention of the one who posted the meme. It can’t be that we aren’t allowed to make jokes or talk about veganism online because people are selectively oversensitive. This meme is really really mild when compared to a lot of the other jokes posted here. Especially when you compare it to the amount of mockery and jokes many vegans and vegetarians have to endure in their personal life.
Meat eaters can’t expect to bite all the time but than get all cranky when someone stubs them back.
Good thing I wasn’t directly replying to the meme itself. I was replying to what’s a now deleted comment. Wonder why they deleted it, maybe all that yelling they were doing turned out to be ineffective.
Thinking diet shaming can work to turn people Vegan is like thinking body shaming can make people skinny.
So, unless they can reduce the harm they cause to 0%, any and all attempts to reduce it are futile and pointless? This is the nirvana fallacy, and I hope you understand how horrible that would be if we lived by that rule. For example, I can’t stop all racism, all human exploitation, all sexism because I live in a capitalistic hellscape built on the suffering of others. Therefore, I don’t actually need to try, correct?
I’ve eaten chicken, turkey, sheep, cow, pig, duck, rabbit, snail, deer and horse. It’s a bit more than 3, and that’s just the general category (for example, counting boars and pigs as only one type) and only land animals. If we list each fish species, crabs, squids, calamari…
You eat that varied on a daily, or even weekly, basis?
I hope not. Far better for the world (and animal welfare ironically) is to eat locally (which is impossible for vegans in most regions). It’s simply better for me to eat local proteins (still more than 3 - chicken, pork, beef, shrimp, halibut, cod, and I’m allergic to others but other people eat them) with produce I buy from the farm down the street than for me to grab an Avacado (“from Mexicooooo”)
…but to your point, most people have favorites or patterns/habits. Before I became allergic to clams, milk, and scallops, I would eat Clam Chowder or family-fished scallops virtually every day.
Chicken, pork, beef. Duck is common in Asian cuisines. Turkey is common in Western cuisines. Lamb is super common in many cuisines and my personal favorite meat. Bison burgers are popular in many places (dad loves them and so does my work cafeteria). There are dozens of varieties of seafood - but to be generous let’s say it’s just three groups: shells, scales, crustaceans. That’s already 10 types of ‘meat’ that people eat semi-regularly, not including the different aspects/preparation of those selections. Hardly a lack of options!
Lamb is prohibitive expensive. That’s coming from a country that’s has more sheep than humans. Not a chance I can afford to buy lamb even though it’s Soo good. Chicken and beef mostly and maybe something when it’s on deal.
I know all these options are out there, but I find it hard to believe the average person is eating 10+ different animals in a week.
Sure. But if someone isn’t eating a varied diet, becoming vegan or vegetarian isn’t going to fix that.
It could actually help, inadvertently. When I became vegan I could no longer fall back on my old comfort meals without modifying them. Limitations breed creativity.
If we include seafood, I definitely do.
But to be fair, I don’t think the average person is eating that varied a diet. I am not going to make the claim people on a plant-based diet can’t get protein, they can, but they probably aren’t getting 10+ different sources of it either.
If I wasn’t meant to eat pigs, why is every single part of a pig so damn delicious?
It’s pretty ironic that ribs evolved to prevent a pig from being killed
Humans taste great. Kind of like chicken. You should try sometime if it tastes good its okay right?
you are aware animals eat animals right
Animals rape other animals should it be okay for you to rape others as well?
I’d easily eat humans if it were legal and they processed in our bodies correctly! I don’t get it, why you would want to let all that meat go to waste?
Because I am generally against killing people for sensory pleasure purposes. Are you not?
That’s a jump, from “I’d eat a human” to necessitating the human have been purposefully killed to be consumed. The previous poster even pretty clearly said not wanting to waste meat, implying the human was already dead and would just be burnt/buried otherwise.
So you’re against the farming of animals then and just support eating road kill and such?
I definitely didn’t say that. My views on eating animals isn’t relevant to this conversation. Just pointing out you’re framing the words the previous poster used in a vastly different light than what they said. Kinda like you tried to do to mine.
That said, honestly yeah, if you accidentally kill an animal, use it’s meat.
They said they would eat humans if it was legal and healthy so no i wasn’t being unreasonable. Also there is no difference between killing a human and killing another animal so supporting eating one and not the other is hypocrisy of the highest order.
Prions are a great reason.
Worth noting that other animals too have prions such as the one that causes mad cow disease. Not to mention diseases like E. Coli, Salmonella, etc.
I mean I think it’s pretty telling that there are lots of plant based versions of meat based food, but not the other way around. Nobody is trying to replicate the taste of salads in meat form
Outside of some fad diets, there isn’t really much of a push among anyone to cut plants out of your diet though. There’s no need to make fake plant-products generally.
Probably because there’s not really an ethical concern over eating (most) plants. You’re making a false equivalence.
And what does it tell you?
But… I haz both.