• dottedgreenline@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    A lot of people in the comments can’t seem to make the distinction between what they have been fed since they were little and that they are used to, and what is good, or tastes good.

    • abraxas@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      Most people who eat meat also eat some subset of vegetables and know they like/hate some other subset of vegetables.

      The human body loves getting addicted to the unhealthy sugar carbs found in some plants, but our taste buds do tend to have a healthier long-term relationship with the umami balance you get more easily from meats and seafoods.

      • dottedgreenline@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        My comment was more about the knee-jerk reaction to new ideas and new ways of looking at things you may think you are already familiar with.

        • abraxas@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          Well, yes. It’s doubly true with food because our tastebuds tend towards liking the foods we are used to eating.

      • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
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        1 year ago

        This can only be because you probably have no idea how to cook and always eat and buy the same dishes and ingredients all the time. Otherwise I have no idea how you would arrive at that conclusion.

        • abraxas@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          …well, I did audit a culinary program when my wife took it. I have restauranteers in my family. I could probably survive in a small restaurant kitchen. But I guess I don’t know how to cook :)

          (fixed that part of my reply was to the wrong comment)

          As for umami, it is the most stable flavor profile. You can get umami outside of meat, but like the protein you get out of meat, it requires a tremendous amount of effort and processing. And even then, my favorite way of making tofu involves just a little bit of bacon fat. And after I eat an incredible plate of falafal, I still want a nice cut of beef on the main plate.

          I’ve probably eaten a well-above-average variety of meals from almost every culture (in some cases, blessed with the chance to eat in the country in question)… and yet, as enjoyable as the vegan ones are they are at best a shadow of themselves. The “not fake meat” ones are far better, but I rate food on quality. If “A+B” is simply a better meal than “A”, then that speaks volumes. Most vegan or meatless meals are “A”, and adding “B” elevates them. “B” usually happens to be an animal product.

          Now IF I had some sort of moral or religious requirement to avoid meat, there are "A"s that would be good enough. I’ve had some Indian coworkers wow me with some of their meat-free food. But I ethically feel that eating meat is a good thing, so I have to admit that the best Samosa I’ve had was lamb and not veggie.

          • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
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            1 year ago

            Sorry, I am not convinced. Someone who can’t find umami flavour in plant based food easily isn’t a good cook.

            But I ethically feel that eating meat is a good thing

            I am very interested in how you argue it’s “ethically” to breed lifeforms just to have them suffer and then eat them.

            • abraxas@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              I kinda hoped moving away from reddit would lead to less “you hold a different view than me so you must be an absolute idiot”. I suppose I’m sorely disappointed.

                • abraxas@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  Re-read your previous comment and try to consider why I might have taken it that way. Otherwise, have a great day.

  • Querk [they/them]@discuss.tchncs.de
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    1 year ago

    Buckwheat (must buy eastern european kind) with diced avocado thrown in and a few pinches of salt is the shiznitz.

    If I had to choose only one meal to eat for the rest of my life - this would be it.

    edit: buckwheat prep: boil for 10-20 mins until most of the water boils away. Add some water if it boils away too soon. Leave some water/moisture to boil away while it’s cooling and not to get buckwheat burned and stuck on the pot surface. Throw in some diced avocado chunks. Add salt to bring out the buckwheat flavor. Done.

  • Nioxic@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    animal nutrition > plant nutrition. Gram for gram.

    and there are essential nutrients in animals that you just cannot get, from plants.

    1 cow can feed a whole person for a year.

    • oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz
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      1 year ago

      You’re the ones hurting innocent animals almost entirely for pleasure or convenience. Someone innocent getting hurt completely unnecessarily is good reason to cause a ruckus

            • oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz
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              1 year ago

              Many anti-lgbtq+ folks think that people who support or are a part of the lgbtq+ are insufferable, but here we are making progress for peoples rights.

              If you want to be a bigot against nonhuman animals and their rights, i can’t stop you. But at least be aware that that’s what’s happening. People perpetuating injustice are never going to be happy with those against it no matter how it’s presented, so i’d rather just be as clear and concise as I can

                • oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz
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                  1 year ago

                  Ok, mind your own business when it comes to nonhuman animals. Paying to have them exploited and killed is the opposite of minding your own business, it’s forcing your views onto them, and i’m here to tell you stop forcing your speciesist views onto innocent nonhuman animals

      • LoreleiSankTheShip@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        You do realize stopping the meat industry altogether implies letting all livestock die, right? Very few people could afford keeping a cow or a pig as a pet and without the financial incentive there, farmers wouldn’t waste their money feeding the livestock. They can no longer survive in the wild.

        I’m not in favour of how it works right now either, I’m all for more animal rights and better conditions, but to think we could just stop and everything would be nice is just plain naive.

        • oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz
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          1 year ago

          Ok, so lets stop breeding them first. Stop paying people to force them to get pregnant.

          Ideally we’d be able to release them into the wild or have sanctuaries for them, but that’s just not really possible. But if we stopped forcing more of them into existence then the remaining ones would all be killed pretty fast, which is far better than them and their children and their childrens children, and so on for the foreseeable future being killed.

          More realistically, if animal liberation is achieved the population of farmed animals will gradually decline as fewer people support animal ag until there are only a few of them left, on sanctuaries or reserves or something, or they go extinct

  • at_an_angle@lemmy.one
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    1 year ago

    Eat steak, eat steak eat a big ol’ steer

    Eat steak, eat steak do we have one dear?

    Eat beef, eat beef it’s a mighty good food

    It’s a grade A meal when I’m in the mood.

    -Reverend Horton Heat

  • EatsTheCheeseRind@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    What three animals everyone else eating? We’ve got chickens, ducks, pigeons, quail, geese, cranes, turkeys, cows, deer, elk, moose, antelope, armadillo, beaver, bobcats, coyotes, foxes, lynx, bear, bison, caribou, goat, musk ox, pronghorn, sheep, muskrat, opossums, pigs, porcupine, rabbits, squirrels, pheasant, chukars, and tons of tasty insects to choose from.

  • DigitalWanderer@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    and after eating all 80.000 you’ll still be hungry and feeling a bit weak…

    face it, humans are omnivore we will always need both to thrive, balance is key

      • DigitalWanderer@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Meat is not essential for human diet. However, many of the nutrients found in meat are essential for our health. Protein, iron, and B vitamins are just some of the nutrients found in meats. Meat provides our bodies with proteins, vitamins, and minerals that are necessary for proper muscle and organ function.

        Sure there is a pill for everything but its the same as getting a IV with fluids instead of drinking. You will still be thirsty… again finding balance is the key, not every meal requires meat.

        • Metallibus@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          However, many of the nutrients found in meat are essential for our health. Protein, iron, and B vitamins are just some of the nutrients found in meats.

          These nutrients are found in non meat sources as well. Meat doesn’t carry anything unique besides B12 because we wash the fuck out of our vegetables. Plant based diets make it pretty difficult to miss nutrients unless you’re just sitting around eating oreos all day.

        • TheUniqueOne@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          1 year ago

          You can get protein from plenty of non meat sources like nuts and beans. iron from cashews and oats you can get a nutritionally complete diet without killing sentient beings.

          • w00tabaga@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            …and you could do the same thing and eat exclusively from the animal kingdom too.

            If you don’t want to eat anything from the animal kingdom for your own reasons, cool. But when you start saying anything about what other people eat, imo you are no different than someone saying their religion/beliefs are best. Just don’t.

            Humans are omnivores and always have been, society and technology today has only recently allowed humans to strictly become vegetarians on any kind of scale. Specific eating habits for moral reasons is a thing people who aren’t poor in first world countries have the privilege of doing. People in 3rd world countries/poor people are simply going to eat whatever is available to them.

            Again, no one is wrong here, until one starts advocating that their way is best or better.

            • TheUniqueOne@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              1 year ago

              Omnivores who primarily didn’t eat meat. Until recently in non hunter gatherer societies at least meat was a luxury not a staple and it would still be that why if not for massive subsidies. Letting people do what they want doesn’t apply when there are victims which animals are.

              • w00tabaga@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                Actually, they ate meat as much as they could. Just wasn’t always available without good ways to store it long term. But there’s a reason why they were called hunter gatherers and why humans evolved to be able to run long distances and are heat tolerant, because our ancestors ran down prey by exhausting it.

                But as far as we know all people hunted at least until early agriculture started being practiced

                • TheUniqueOne@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  1 year ago

                  I said in non hunter gatherer societies. In sedentary societies meat was a sign of upper class luxury. The fact the we have evolutionary advantages for hunting prey says nothing about how we should structure society one way or another.

            • TimeSquirrel@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              People in 3rd world countries/poor people are simply going to eat whatever is available to them.

              There is an entire such country with over a billion people in Asia where almost half the population is vegan/vegetarian. I’ll leave you to guess which one. It’s not about price, but rather accessibility. Their entire food economy is centered around it. Modern western diets push meat way more than others. You do NOT need it every single day.

          • DigitalWanderer@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            true, love me both some cashew and beans too bad both are also horrible strains on the environment like 6k liter for 0,5kg cashews buth that is a whole other debate

        • BrickTamland@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          Some of the vitamins you think are naturally from all meat sources are supplemented vitamins (just like taking a pill) into the feed of those animals

        • Resethel@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          I’d go farther in saying that staying the fuck away from “industrialy” grown meat, and overly processed food is the way to go (for health). Reducing a maximum the meat consumption, and subside it for higher quality one is what’s necessary for the environment.

          Going vegetarian (mostly) is even more efficient in both cases as long as the diet is well crafted for balancing all the body needs.

    • roux is a lib@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      I haven’t eaten meat in almost a year and my fat ass is not exactly starving.

      • ImFresh3x@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        Wait do you think farming doesn’t hurt animals? I’m all for not eating meat, but pretending you’re not harming millions of insects, birds, and various mammals every time you eat a salad, you’re confused about how food production works.

        The moral thing people can do is stop making so many people. And hopefully we find ways to produce food in a better way one day. But farming on the scale that feeds billions of people is absolutely fucked.

        • TheUniqueOne@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          1 year ago

          The majority of farming is for animal feed we could easily scale down plant and vegetable farming while eliminating animal exploitation and still see everyone feed.

              • ImFresh3x@sh.itjust.works
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                1 year ago

                We were taking about the death of animals.

                If you have the choice to avoid certain types of foods that kill more animals than other types of foods I don’t see much difference other than a relativism. So no coffee. No tea. Only organic local foods that are in season grown on a small farm you personally know the SOPs of…

                Btw I avoid meat almost entirely. I just think the moral righteousness I see from Whole Foods Amazon vegetarians to be wholly laughable.

                • abraxas@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  In my experience, my organic local crops still involve animal deaths. And need cows to fertilize.

                  Balanced is simply better than vegan. Not everyone eats balanced, but people who do should not be shamed for it.

        • abraxas@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          Taking a step crazier, there are some animals that produce SO MANY calories that they represent less animal deaths per calorie than eating crops. Cows and Pigs are an example of that. I’m not going to get into hard numbers because everyone likes to hate on the other side’s numbers and my experience living in a farming community looks more like the numbers that make animals look bad. If you want to math it out, the farm industry estimates about 40 mouse deaths per acre farmed, and vegan advocates defend a 15 total animal deaths per hectare figure. Grass-fed cows are more death-efficient than corn (the gold standard efficient crop, if less efficient than potatoes) at around 10 deaths-per-acre of farmland. I’ve never seen an acre of farmland without at least 10 animal carcasses on it in a full growth+harvest cycle.

          • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
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            1 year ago

            How many people do you estimate could be fed with grass-fed cows? What about the usage of water? What is with the thousands of hectare of forest that have been rode for pastures? What about the water you need for this type of farming? What about the fact that, if everybody would switch to a meatless diet you would need much less farmland overall?

            I know why you do not want to get into hard numbers. Because they would refute your weak arguments.

            • abraxas@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              How many people do you estimate could be fed with grass-fed cows?

              Why are we going back to “grass-fed”? Do you have plans for that inedible plant waste that currently only ends up in animals or landfills?

              What about the usage of water?

              What about it? I’m not sure you understand how water works in agriculture/horticulture. Are you looking at “water footprint”? That’s its own complicated topic with as many landmines. I’d like to point out that cows are basically as efficient as nuts (or any real vegetable protein), and even the waterfootprint site just suggests having a mix of chicken and beef.

              From your unkind reply to me elsewhere… If you had to pick between the environment and fewer animal deaths, which would you choose? I like to talk cows with vegans because a mixed diet with beef as the only meat clearly consists of fewer animal deaths than a vegan diet. 700,000 calories a death is pretty hard to beat. Environmentally speaking (and water), the best way to get protein is from animals that have to die and locally sourced chicken. Chicken are pretty death inefficient though, aren’t they?

              What is with the thousands of hectare of forest that have been rode for pastures?

              What about factory farms in third world countries with no safety controls? There’s as much of a veg-packing industry as there is a meat-packing one. Are you going to stop eating vegetables because SOME FARM SOMEWHERE does something wrong? The meat I eat doesn’t come from places where “thousands of hectares of forest have been rode for pasture”.

              What about the fact that, if everybody would switch to a meatless diet you would need much less farmland overall?

              You seemed to have backed yourself into a corner with a non-argument argument. Is this from a position that land usage is unacceptable? Because the world is nowhere near overpopulated yet. Is this from an environmental standpoint? Then land use is the wrong figure. Are you really happy if we use less farmland but produce MORE net GHG? We need more farmland per calorie of crop if we don’t have sufficient fertilization. But the fertilizers (synethic and manure) are the potential problem. To use less farmland overall, you need to produce more GHG overall. The balance for farmland is to have localized ecosystems of livestock fertilizing local plant farms which in turn use their waste to feed.

              I’m gonna be crystal clear. I’m NOT saying beef is perfect. I prefer chicken and seafood from an environmental perspective. But I know a lot of vegans care more about “saving animal lives” than they do the environment. So I talk cow. I’ll concede it straight - beef should NOT be foundational to your diet any more than veganism should be if your goal is a single sustainable diet for the entire world.

      • DanglingFury@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        You gotta let people be people. Shaming someone for their dietary choices is not cool. Not everyone shares the same beliefs and that is fine.

        I personally believe that people should not eat meat unless they have what it takes to kill it themselves so they understand what goes into it.

        • oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz
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          1 year ago

          When someones dietary choice causes huge amounts of needless suffering and death to the victim (the innocent animal that was exploited and killed) then that’s not “fine”. That’s a serious injustice that should be pointed out (at the very least)

            • FIST_FILLET@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              i know this may be a shock but fish haven’t reached the industrialization part of civilization yet. they do not have the capabilities to grow crops and harvest them and make dishes

            • r1veRRR@feddit.de
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              1 year ago

              Think about the argument you’re making here: “Wild animals do X, therefore humans should be allowed to do X”. I hope you understand how horrible this argument is. Here’s a fun little list of things animals do:

              • Eat their young
              • Grape
              • Murder each other for status or access to women
              • shit on the floor in public
                • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
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                  1 year ago

                  Than why am I not allowed to eat other humans? They are made out of meat, too. And why do we not allow animals to eat humans?

              • abraxas@lemmy.ml
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                1 year ago

                Nothing like going to my local farm and eating their meat while watching a movie about how GOOD the meat I’m eating is because some other meat is so terrible.

                Thanks for the idea :) I’m gonna bring it up for the next local farm-to-table

        • r1veRRR@feddit.de
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          Some beliefs lead to immoral outcomes. I’m absolutely certain you can think of quite a few beliefs like that, right? Just picture a hill billy from Alabama, are all his beliefs fine?

          In the end, morals is applied ethics, and politics is applied morals. We absolutely should legislate and not tolerate bad beliefs. The vague idea that “everyone has their own belief/opinion and we have to respect it” is a thought terminating cliche that makes the world a worse place. My dad wants me to respect his antivax beliefs, my grandfather wants me to respect his climate change denialism beliefs. Should I?

          • DanglingFury@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Well said, I’m glad to finally meet someone with your views that is able to express themselves.

            I would say no to your question as those beliefs are contradicting science and they could cause harm to people. My beliefs do not contradict established science. I would also point out that not all rural Appalachian people are bigots, but I understand the point you were making with it. The difference in our views is that I don’t see animals as people. I understand their intelligent, and I believe some may be sentient such as elephants and whales. I am against killing elephants and whales.

            If you are curious to see it from my perspective, participate in a somewhat poor analogy. Imagine someone came out and said they believe that killing a tree is the same as committing murder, that trees are people. After all, we have proven that they communicate with other trees and with mycelium in very complex and even selfless ways, probably to an even higher degree than we have yet discovered. This person is adamant that the trees are being oppressed and that we need to stop farming trees for paper products. They say that you are a bad person for causing unnecessary suffering and destruction to trees. But imagine that you disagree with them, you do not see trees as people. You understand that trees are living and communicating and you would like to see less cut down, but you still use them for firewood to heat your house. You see it as no less humane to grow them and cut them down than it is to let them die from burning to death or being eaten alive by bugs or disease.

            Not the best example, and there are plenty of holes you could point out of you feel so inclined, but hopefully the core of it can grant atleast a small glimpse into how I see the issue we are discussing.

            More info on the trees talking thing. I find it fascinating that they have a whole complex economy going on underground, trading and even investing resources. DYK that as a last act when a tree is dying, it gives its resources to saplings that are of a different species than itself before it goes. There’s some good podcast on it “radiolab, from tree to shining tree”. Also an quick Google search article. https://www.nationalforests.org/blog/underground-mycorrhizal-network

            • Nora@sh.itjust.works
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              1 year ago

              There is an obvious difference between kicking a puppy and cutting a tree. Trees do not have brains. Trees also cant move to get away from a predator, so why would they develop emotions we have? As complicated as my right hand is, it isnt sentient.

              I see what you are saying about digging holes, there are a lot of arguments we could go on but the issue doesn’t need to be overcomplicated. The animal industry absolutely is terrible for sentient beings and terrible for the environment, and being vegan vastly reduces the plants or animals we kill.

            • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
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              1 year ago

              Neuroscience agrees that other mammals and birds are able to experience suffering. They feel pain and stress and fear. The majority agrees they are conscious of their emotions even. To ignore that is a conscious decision on your side. You decide their suffering is worth it, but you don’t want people to confront you with it because it makes you uncomfortable. How ironic.

              • DanglingFury@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Lol it does not make me uncomfortable. Everything dies somehow, modern slaughterhouses are a lot more humane than mother nature.

        • TheUniqueOne@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          1 year ago

          Let people be doesn’t apply when it involves harming someone else. The harm done to animals is unnecessary violence and cruelty to living thinking beings.

          • DanglingFury@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            That is your belief. I respect it. My mom is a vegetarian and I respect her beliefs, she would cook meat for us as she respected ours.

            To me, the world has been eating itself since the beginning of life. Wild animals die horrible slow deaths from sickness to starvation over the course of days/weeks to being eaten alive or left to die, and that is the natural way of things. If you want to live you have to die. You don’t have to agree with me, but you should accept that different people see things differently than you.

            I don’t expect a person at the bottom of the economic scale to feed their family with expensive alternatives that they don’t understand, and you should’t shame them for doing the best they can with what they have or what they know. If someone has the means to eat along with their beliefs, then more power to them. But shaming others is not the way.

            Lead by example. Offer affordable alternatives, give positive publicity, not negative publicity, to let people see how your way can be good. Allow people to see your way. Don’t force them or they’ll just dig in deeper on their own beliefs.

            • TheUniqueOne@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              1 year ago

              Animals are being slaughtered they want to live. I respect your belief that the rock music is not garbage not your beliefs others should die for your sensory pleasure. Not consuming animal products is not an expensive luxury at all its way cheaper than meat and dairy and that would be magnified if the subsidies stopped.

              • DanglingFury@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                If you believe that then you should work to change people’s minds, like actually research how to do that. The way you currently approach it will only make people disagree with you out of spite. Good luck to you.

                • ClarkDoom@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Some people really think being a good example of the product of their beliefs and being obnoxiously obtuse and argumentative about their beliefs are equally effective at persuading others to think like them.

                  I can tell you no person ever in humanity was convinced by the latter.

                • TheUniqueOne@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  1 year ago

                  Also who are you to tell me how to argue for animal liberation given whats been tried before has obviously not worked on you.

                • TheUniqueOne@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  1 year ago

                  If you help kill living beings out of spite then I’m not the problem. If nobody is challenged when they kill and oppress others they will never stop doing so.

          • ngdev@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            I disagree with the comment on the point about it being a leftist naivety, but it is naïve nonetheless. Life feeds on life and all that. That they’re sentient doesn’t matter, some people argue plants are sentient too (not that I necessarily agree)

            • TheUniqueOne@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              1 year ago

              Plants aren’t capable of feeling pain and are not capable of subjectivity all science currently supports this. Even if you thought plants are sentient (they are not) the best way to lessen plant harm would include as a key precipice the end of animal agriculture.

                • TheUniqueOne@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  1 year ago

                  This study shows nothing but plants respond to stimulus without a brain or nervous system to classify this is a pain response is reaching. Noting that the person interviewed in that article is a philosopher not a scientist and interprets that study very loosely. As I said already though even if you cede this ground you shouldn’t you just wind up at eliminating animal agriculture to lessen the “suffering” of plants as well as animals.

        • dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          Most people, including leftists, are meat eaters.

          Did you assume he was a lefty because he used a word with more than 4 syllables?

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            1 year ago

            I’ve raised quite a few farm animals. They don’t have an urge to live. My goodness do they take every chance to get themselves killed…

            • TheUniqueOne@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              1 year ago

              Except they blatantly do. Sorry your anecdotal experience doesn’t add up with the scientific evidence it must be wrong.

              • awsamation@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                Is it still anecdotal if literally any farmer will tell you the same? Because they will.

                A surprisingly large amount of effort goes into trying to keep the livestock from hurting themselves or getting themselves killed. That’s inevitable when essentially turn off natural selection, they end up losing any sense of self preservation. And why not, they do have multiple humans who’s entire career centers on keeping them alive until they’re ready for slaughter.

                • TheUniqueOne@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  1 year ago

                  Are they in danger from hurting themself because they are stressed at their confinement maybe? They are slaughtered at barely a fraction of their natural lifespan.

                • FIST_FILLET@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  enslaved animals try to commit suicide after being forcefully impregnated and kicked around and having their children stolen from them immediately after birth

                  wow i fucking wonder why dude

              • elgordofordo86@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                They are hearty for sure and that can be seen as an urge or will to live. Animals are dumb and have a shocking lack of self preservation. Are you talking about conscious ‘I want to live, I better not do that’ or ‘I will find a way to live in my circumstances’?

        • MemeSink@reddthat.com
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          1 year ago

          Plenty of foods are delicious.

          So ethics aren’t a concern for you. How about the adverse health effects, or environmental impacts of the meat industry? Any considerations there, or is all about how delicious steak is to you?

          • abraxas@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            You know there’s a lot of valid ethical frameworks that do not espouse veganism?

            It’s safer to say “YOUR ethics aren’t a concern to him”, or to me. There’s a lot of philosophers who eat meat. And it’s not hypocritical. They just think you’re wrong. You aren’t God (and even if you were, God doesn’t get to decide ethics).

            As for adverse health effects, I have known dozens of ex-vegans, one with an degree in nutrition, who left veganism despite their ethics, for health reasons. Generally speaking, it’s easier to “accidentally” have an reasonably ok diet with a full balanced mix of foods than it is for a vegan to intentionally have one.

            or environmental impacts of the meat industry?

            This is actually an incredibly complicated accusation, and unless you enter the conversation with the conclusion in mind, there’s not enough evidence/arguments out there to show that it’s “the meat industry” that’s the real environmental problem with our food industry. As someone who has shared a table with experts on a few occasions and then done some of my own armchair research, I’m convinced the two real problems are non-local food and factory farming. The former creates polluting logicistical overhead in transport and over-storage of food (fossil fuels for driving, non-recyclable plastics, etc) and the latter in willful destruction of environment to get more output cheaper, when we have plenty of room and plenty of margins to “do it right”

            As for “to do it right”, part of doing it right is acknowledging that we have a compost/manure shortfall against crops NOT because we’re not producing enough manure but because we don’t have localized meat farms balanced in each area around their crop farms, and/or that it’s considered acceptable to use fertilizers despite the presence of manure that would better fertilize a crop. So the better answer? Local meat, and transition away from factory farms. And if you’ve got the land and the courage for it, keep some chickens for eggs and goats for meat/manure.

            My 2c anyway.

            or is all about how delicious steak is to you?

            AND it is about how delicious a steak is to me. Have you ever walked a local farm with the people who do all the work? Helped them pick out the pigs for the meal? Known the love that is involved in the whole process, and the fact that the animals have it 100x better than they’d have had it in nature.

            So yes, there is nothing like cutting into that pork chop having a REAL appreciation for the pig’s sacrifice, a real appreciation for the work everyone put into it all.

            • MemeSink@reddthat.com
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              1 year ago

              My ethical concerns go beyond raising animals, it’s the unnecessary killing them without their consent where it becomes problematic. Particularly when the “sacrifice” is for the trivial reason to satisfy the killer’s taste buds; when our taste buds can be satisfied in so many ways that don’t involve a victim.

              And yes, I grew up on a farm where we raised all our own meat, including pigs. I’ve personally killed more animals than the average person, and I can say with certainty that every animal wants to live. To violently take another’s life “because it tastes good” and then go through such convuluted reasoning to justify it is very puzzling to me. It suggests a lack of empathy that seems to be endemic in our society. To speak of “the love” that is involved in the process doesn’t hold much weight with me. Serial killers love to kill, don’t they?

              • abraxas@lemmy.ml
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                1 year ago

                Understand that you don’t get to pen the ethical frameworks for the world, only for yourself. Even in ethical frameworks where “consent” and “killing” are given extreme weight, there are always other factors… And under most of the foundational ethical frameworks (Utilitarianism and Natural Law Theory come to mind), the argument for necessary-veganism is unsupportable.

                So if you want to hate meat eating, say “I think it’s wrong to eat animals” or “my morals don’t allow it”. Don’t tell people who eat meat they don’t care about ethics, because that statement is simply dead wrong.

                Particularly when the “sacrifice” is for the trivial reason to satisfy the killer’s taste buds

                My biggest complaint about proselytizing vegans is the way they oversimplify the equation. Like every single person who ever eats meat for any reason stops with a fork in their hand saying “Is this bite of food more important to me than murder? YES IT IS”.

                To violently take another’s life “because it tastes good” and then go through such convuluted reasoning to justify it is very puzzling to me.

                With all due respect, reality is not as simple as you’re making it out to be. If you cannot see that there’s more to the discussion than “meat tastes good” and “animals don’t want to die”, then nobody can help you. But pretending that people use convoluted reasoning to justify it is an ignorant take, whether willful or out of being blinded by your own zealous position on the matter.

                It suggests a lack of empathy that seems to be endemic in our society

                You do understand that from a psychological point of view, human empathy and animal empathy are different factors and rationally exist in different amounts. Honestly, my personal take is that zealous vegans show less empathy towards fellow man than other people. LOOK at the way you’re thinking about supermajority of humanity? Why should I not see that as a lack of empathy as well?

                And for that matter, there are several empathy-related disorders where a person’s mispaced empathy goes so far as to affect their relationships and quality of life. And again, that’s only for that rare person staring at meat on a fork commenting about how murder tastes good. The ones who simply categorize animals or plants or insects differently from you in their empathy don’t suggest anything of the sort.

                Serial killers love to kill, don’t they?

                Tell it to me straight. Are you so far gone that you cannot understand the moral, ethical, or psychological difference between being an actual serial killer and simply not being vegan?

          • awsamation@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            So ethics aren’t a concern for you

            Quite the opposite actually, as a farmer raising my animals ethically is a daily fact concern. I just don’t buy into your supposition that raising them is inherently unethical.

            How about the adverse health effects

            If I live long enough that eating meat is the primary thing that got me killed, I see that as an absolute win. I like riding motorcycles, I also like beer and sugar and baked goodies. I fully expect something else to get me well before a lifetime of eating meat has the chance. And I’m okay with that, I’d rather live a few years less and get to keep partaking in the things I enjoy. Plenty of people live into their 80s without giving up meat, and living into my 80s sounds plenty long to me.

            environmental impacts of the meat industry

            I believe that until nuclear is being seriously considered as the solution for clean electricity, then it isn’t worth worrying about which of my habits are supposedly causing the climate crisis.

            Any considerations there, or is all about how delicious steak is to you?

            I wouldn’t say it’s “all about” how delicious steak is. But I would say that in all of your examples “less steak” doesn’t seem to be the most prudent place to start, or to consider at all.

            • abraxas@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              I’ve watched animals die in nature. Unless I’m talking to an anti-natalist, I cannot fathom how they think the life of a farm animal is worse than the life of a wild animal. To me, it comes back to a colorblind view of the trolley problem: “It only matters if we’re part of decision that leads to pulling the trigger”

              I really feel like the preachy vegans have crossed some line and cannot be reasoned with. And the non-preachy vegans don’t go out of their way to have the discussion (more’s the pity, since they’d probabliy have a more balanced view before turning preachy)

      • agitatedpotato@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        If you dont want to contribute to the comodification of sentient beings you’d also have to quit your job unless it somehow has literally zero impact on your physical and mental well being. Anyone got a job like that?

        • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
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          1 year ago

          So your “argument” is, if we can’t be 100 % cruelty free, we shouldn’t reduce cruelty?

          • agitatedpotato@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            My arguement is if you want to reduce crulety, you have options to do so in your own life, which are far more productive than simply yelling at people online for not doing it the exact same way as you. You refusing to work somewhere you can support less exploitative practices because your comfortable in your job is no different then someone telling you they’re not changing their diet because it works for them. You have the means and the capacity to change yourselves, yet you’d rather yell at people online to change themselves.

            • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
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              1 year ago

              I don’t yell at people. And I also don’t think a Meme is similar to yelling at someone…

              Perhaps people feel much more attacked than what is the intention of the one who posted the meme. It can’t be that we aren’t allowed to make jokes or talk about veganism online because people are selectively oversensitive. This meme is really really mild when compared to a lot of the other jokes posted here. Especially when you compare it to the amount of mockery and jokes many vegans and vegetarians have to endure in their personal life.

              Meat eaters can’t expect to bite all the time but than get all cranky when someone stubs them back.

              • agitatedpotato@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Good thing I wasn’t directly replying to the meme itself. I was replying to what’s a now deleted comment. Wonder why they deleted it, maybe all that yelling they were doing turned out to be ineffective.

                Thinking diet shaming can work to turn people Vegan is like thinking body shaming can make people skinny.

        • r1veRRR@feddit.de
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          1 year ago

          So, unless they can reduce the harm they cause to 0%, any and all attempts to reduce it are futile and pointless? This is the nirvana fallacy, and I hope you understand how horrible that would be if we lived by that rule. For example, I can’t stop all racism, all human exploitation, all sexism because I live in a capitalistic hellscape built on the suffering of others. Therefore, I don’t actually need to try, correct?

  • Wrrzag@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    I’ve eaten chicken, turkey, sheep, cow, pig, duck, rabbit, snail, deer and horse. It’s a bit more than 3, and that’s just the general category (for example, counting boars and pigs as only one type) and only land animals. If we list each fish species, crabs, squids, calamari…

      • abraxas@lemmy.ml
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        I hope not. Far better for the world (and animal welfare ironically) is to eat locally (which is impossible for vegans in most regions). It’s simply better for me to eat local proteins (still more than 3 - chicken, pork, beef, shrimp, halibut, cod, and I’m allergic to others but other people eat them) with produce I buy from the farm down the street than for me to grab an Avacado (“from Mexicooooo”)

        …but to your point, most people have favorites or patterns/habits. Before I became allergic to clams, milk, and scallops, I would eat Clam Chowder or family-fished scallops virtually every day.

      • rabirabirara@programming.dev
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        1 year ago

        Chicken, pork, beef. Duck is common in Asian cuisines. Turkey is common in Western cuisines. Lamb is super common in many cuisines and my personal favorite meat. Bison burgers are popular in many places (dad loves them and so does my work cafeteria). There are dozens of varieties of seafood - but to be generous let’s say it’s just three groups: shells, scales, crustaceans. That’s already 10 types of ‘meat’ that people eat semi-regularly, not including the different aspects/preparation of those selections. Hardly a lack of options!

        • Mojojojo1993@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          Lamb is prohibitive expensive. That’s coming from a country that’s has more sheep than humans. Not a chance I can afford to buy lamb even though it’s Soo good. Chicken and beef mostly and maybe something when it’s on deal.

        • Dangy@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          I know all these options are out there, but I find it hard to believe the average person is eating 10+ different animals in a week.

            • Dangy@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              It could actually help, inadvertently. When I became vegan I could no longer fall back on my old comfort meals without modifying them. Limitations breed creativity.

          • Addfwyn@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            If we include seafood, I definitely do.

            But to be fair, I don’t think the average person is eating that varied a diet. I am not going to make the claim people on a plant-based diet can’t get protein, they can, but they probably aren’t getting 10+ different sources of it either.

      • LegendofZelda64@lemmy.fmhy.ml
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        1 year ago

        I’d easily eat humans if it were legal and they processed in our bodies correctly! I don’t get it, why you would want to let all that meat go to waste?

          • Ookami38@sh.itjust.works
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            1 year ago

            That’s a jump, from “I’d eat a human” to necessitating the human have been purposefully killed to be consumed. The previous poster even pretty clearly said not wanting to waste meat, implying the human was already dead and would just be burnt/buried otherwise.

              • Ookami38@sh.itjust.works
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                1 year ago

                I definitely didn’t say that. My views on eating animals isn’t relevant to this conversation. Just pointing out you’re framing the words the previous poster used in a vastly different light than what they said. Kinda like you tried to do to mine.

                That said, honestly yeah, if you accidentally kill an animal, use it’s meat.

                • TheUniqueOne@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  1 year ago

                  They said they would eat humans if it was legal and healthy so no i wasn’t being unreasonable. Also there is no difference between killing a human and killing another animal so supporting eating one and not the other is hypocrisy of the highest order.

          • usernamesAreTricky@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            Worth noting that other animals too have prions such as the one that causes mad cow disease. Not to mention diseases like E. Coli, Salmonella, etc.

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    1 year ago

    I mean I think it’s pretty telling that there are lots of plant based versions of meat based food, but not the other way around. Nobody is trying to replicate the taste of salads in meat form

    • Addfwyn@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      Outside of some fad diets, there isn’t really much of a push among anyone to cut plants out of your diet though. There’s no need to make fake plant-products generally.

    • wander1236@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      Probably because there’s not really an ethical concern over eating (most) plants. You’re making a false equivalence.