In general, all the “use time machine to kill Hitler” ideas (in the rare cases they are not presented as just a joke) assume that it was Hitler the person and not the socioeconomic and historical conditions that resulted in the catastrophe. There were enough little Hitlers to fill that role. If you want to prevent anything beyond small details, you have your hands full of work as a time traveler.
People always say this but it doesn’t ring completely true in my opinion. Maybe the socioeconomic conditions are a huge thing but without Hitler maybe the Weimer barely chugs along as a conservative military ruled “democracy.” Maybe it still falls to a massively oppressive regime but that’s no guarantee that regime does something like the holocaust maybe they just oppress their own people and maybe take over Austria and then you know stop there. Without Hitler to rally around maybe the socioeconomic dissatisfaction leads to a renewed socialist movement instead. Individuals do matter in the end.
I used to think the Great Man of History idea was silly. Clearly, it was a about a complex set of conditions that made somebody like them inevitable.
Then I worked for a few CEOs, good and bad and realized that, even in a company of thousands, the vision and charisma of one man makes all the difference.
Now, I think I see it like great plays in sports. It is the whole team, and the other team, and an uncountable number of factors ( bump in the turf ) that setup the conditions for that perfect shot. Once conditions are right though, you also need somebody capable of capitalizing on that moment and making history. Perhaps the most important element is that history making player. You still have to put them in the right spot though and a lot goes into that.
True, individuals aren’t completely without influence of course, it would certainly re-roll details of what exactly happens, which could turn out significantly better. Unfortunately it could also be worse.
Also, there are limits to what can be achieved with it. For example, even without Hitler, to achieve a successful socialist movement in Weimar Germany, you’d have to do a lot more, Hitler was raised into a fascist demagogue by organizations active long before him, and their foundation was so rooted in the sense of revanchism and the rampant conspiracy theories drenching with antisemitism in Germany at that time, I genuinely think he was not important enough as a rallying figure to have tipped the scale, it was weighted heavily in their favour to begin with.
Keeping the SPD from hiring and strengthening the protofascist Freikorps alone would be more influential than killing Hitler, for example.
Personally, I’d think that would have resulted in a very different World War in the following years, but I am genuinely of the opinion that it was unavoidable. The conflicting imperialist interests were getting more and more tense, and Bismarck’s web of alliances to keep the peace had not only already failed but had become impossible to maintain (due to those ever more rising tensions)
I think this comment really understates just how effective Hitler was as a politician and a leader. He tried to forcibly take over the government and it failed. That part any “little Hitler” could do and also likely fail. What set him apart was his charisma and appeal to the downtrodden, not unlike a certain US politician. He was so well loved and respected that he was able to do heinous acts with near universal support. I don’t think there are many people in history that can do that sort of thing as effectively as he did
But just as that certain other US politician, he mostly came to power due to complacency and collaboration by more moderate nationalists and conservatives. And while the mythos of Hitler was immense, his draw not to be underestimated, without people like Goebbels, without the people hungering for just about any populist figure that enabled their own conspiracy theories, he would have been just another charismatic figure.
Let’s put it this way: If you went back in time and somehow turned Hitler into a communist would that have led to the KPD being voted into power by the enabling act? I seriously doubt it, he was an exceptionally skilled speaker and decent political tactician, but he was no hand that pulled the strings of fate on his own.
Go back in time and try to flag down Archduke Ferdinand’s motor carriage only for the driver to get freaked out and go down the alternate route right to where Gavrilo was trying to get to the original route but was running late because another time traveler delayed him…
In general, all the “use time machine to kill Hitler” ideas (in the rare cases they are not presented as just a joke) assume that it was Hitler the person and not the socioeconomic and historical conditions that resulted in the catastrophe. There were enough little Hitlers to fill that role. If you want to prevent anything beyond small details, you have your hands full of work as a time traveler.
People always say this but it doesn’t ring completely true in my opinion. Maybe the socioeconomic conditions are a huge thing but without Hitler maybe the Weimer barely chugs along as a conservative military ruled “democracy.” Maybe it still falls to a massively oppressive regime but that’s no guarantee that regime does something like the holocaust maybe they just oppress their own people and maybe take over Austria and then you know stop there. Without Hitler to rally around maybe the socioeconomic dissatisfaction leads to a renewed socialist movement instead. Individuals do matter in the end.
It is both.
I used to think the Great Man of History idea was silly. Clearly, it was a about a complex set of conditions that made somebody like them inevitable.
Then I worked for a few CEOs, good and bad and realized that, even in a company of thousands, the vision and charisma of one man makes all the difference.
Now, I think I see it like great plays in sports. It is the whole team, and the other team, and an uncountable number of factors ( bump in the turf ) that setup the conditions for that perfect shot. Once conditions are right though, you also need somebody capable of capitalizing on that moment and making history. Perhaps the most important element is that history making player. You still have to put them in the right spot though and a lot goes into that.
Indeed. Some people wrong place wrong time completely alter the course of history from that point forward.
True, individuals aren’t completely without influence of course, it would certainly re-roll details of what exactly happens, which could turn out significantly better. Unfortunately it could also be worse.
Also, there are limits to what can be achieved with it. For example, even without Hitler, to achieve a successful socialist movement in Weimar Germany, you’d have to do a lot more, Hitler was raised into a fascist demagogue by organizations active long before him, and their foundation was so rooted in the sense of revanchism and the rampant conspiracy theories drenching with antisemitism in Germany at that time, I genuinely think he was not important enough as a rallying figure to have tipped the scale, it was weighted heavily in their favour to begin with.
Keeping the SPD from hiring and strengthening the protofascist Freikorps alone would be more influential than killing Hitler, for example.
There are some key points though that if prevented could stop the whole shit. The assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand for one.
Personally, I’d think that would have resulted in a very different World War in the following years, but I am genuinely of the opinion that it was unavoidable. The conflicting imperialist interests were getting more and more tense, and Bismarck’s web of alliances to keep the peace had not only already failed but had become impossible to maintain (due to those ever more rising tensions)
So kill all of Germany just to be safe. Gotcha.
Nuke it from orbit. It is the only way to be sure.
The Vogon constructer fleet is on its way…
I think this comment really understates just how effective Hitler was as a politician and a leader. He tried to forcibly take over the government and it failed. That part any “little Hitler” could do and also likely fail. What set him apart was his charisma and appeal to the downtrodden, not unlike a certain US politician. He was so well loved and respected that he was able to do heinous acts with near universal support. I don’t think there are many people in history that can do that sort of thing as effectively as he did
Well, history is actually full of those guys. Successful enough to actually conquer territories? Much less, but still quite many.
But just as that certain other US politician, he mostly came to power due to complacency and collaboration by more moderate nationalists and conservatives. And while the mythos of Hitler was immense, his draw not to be underestimated, without people like Goebbels, without the people hungering for just about any populist figure that enabled their own conspiracy theories, he would have been just another charismatic figure.
Let’s put it this way: If you went back in time and somehow turned Hitler into a communist would that have led to the KPD being voted into power by the enabling act? I seriously doubt it, he was an exceptionally skilled speaker and decent political tactician, but he was no hand that pulled the strings of fate on his own.
Use time travel to 1914 and save archduke Franz Ferdinand, avoid the great war and the economic sanctions imposed into Germany after the war
Go back in time and try to flag down Archduke Ferdinand’s motor carriage only for the driver to get freaked out and go down the alternate route right to where Gavrilo was trying to get to the original route but was running late because another time traveler delayed him…