I mean. Which group are legally subhuman in Israeli law? Which group is denied basic human rights such as access to drinking water, political representation, voting rights, movement rights, and inheritance rights in Israeli law? Which group has been kicked out of their ancestral homes for the last 70 years, and increasingly confined within what essentially amounts to giant concentration camps?
Which side has a modern military funded by the United States?
Which group is in control of whether or not the other one has access to electricity food and water?
Yeah, no, that’d be like saying that nobody in South Africa had the moral high ground during the peak of apartheid. That’d be like saying that jewish people who attacked Nazis in Nazi germany were “just as bad”. Or saying that native americans were equally as in the wrong as their colonizers who were actively genociding them.
I will tell you just like i told my kid last night, just because someone else did something wrong does not make you doing it right.
Like, straight up, fuck the Israeli government, none of that makes targeting civilians right.
I understand exactly where you are coming from, but we have to be better than that.
Look, I don’t really like you and everytime I see your username I prepare myself for some new layer of reactionary bullshit or aggressive fighting for no reason.
That said, I think we can both admit that killing a bunch of people at a music festival is wrong.
I will leave out all other allegations other than death because it is the only evidence we have, that we can examine anyway.
We can agree that killing over 200 people at a music festival doing nothing wrong, is never justified right?
Yes, of course mass murder of civilians is never justified. We can understand how people arrived at that violent end, but is it justified no and the ones who carried out this massacre should be condemned for doing so.
I speak my mind and always will. I myself am a minority and face people trying to justify acts of violence against me and people like me all the time. When I see inexcusable actions I’ll speak up about them, if that makes some people not like me then so be it.
There is only one side, only the Israeli state is monolithic and has power over both Palestine and Israel. Palestine is not a state. Hamas is an organization that takes actions on its own behalf.
Are you aware of how Israel and America have collectively disrupted every attempt at peaceful resolution the Palestinians have pushed for? Are you aware of how Hamas came to be the only organization that offers any false hope of a future where Palestinians have actual rights? Are you aware of the last 70 years of Israeli history, during which they have subjugated and mass murdered palestinians indiscriminately and without so much as a peep from the American government? Are you aware of how many thousands of Palestinians have been murdered by Israel in the last 10 years?
Palestine is not a state. Palestinians are the victims of an apartheid states where they are legally subhuman. Israel is a state. The state of Israel could snap their fingers and give palestinians equal rights today. They could sign that law today to give Palestinians human rights and freedoms. That would entirely destabilize the basis by which hamas continues to garner support. They couldve done it last week. Last month. Last year. Ten years ago. They could never have legally made palestinians subhuman to begin with. No, they have actively done everything they can to segregate and discriminate against palestinians at every level of society and government for the last 70 years. This situation only ever existed because of the Israeli state.
All of that can be true, and horrible, but you seem to using it to justify, or gloss over the fact that the stated goal of Hamas is to kill every Jew, including women and children.
So, what? We should root for the more genocidal, but less combat effective, party in this conflict?
Note: I’m not saying this to be for, or against, either party, but I want to be clear about the part you’re noticably leaving out.
Palestinians are not Hamas. Hamas are the only group who is even pretending to offer a solution to the ongoing subjugation of Palestinians. This situation didn’t start yesterday, its been created and shaped by 70 years of racism and atrocities committed by the Israeli state.
You should call for Israel to legally enfranchise Palestinians, for Israel to openly state that racism against Palestinians is wrong and apologize for the children women and elderly they have murdered. This situation will end when Israel undoes the harm it continues to perpetuate against Palestine, or else when they succeed in committing a genocide. Subjugated peoples who have been denied their rights will resort to violence. And rapists and other sick vile people will take advantage of the situation to commit disgusting unforgivable acts. Its possible to continue to call for Israel to cease apartheid while condemning the actions of those committing indiscriminate rape and murder.
I agree with everything you said about Isreal, and even that violence from Palestinians is expected given the circumstances. But I’d ask, what is Hamas goal? To free the Palestinians or to entrench their political power within Gaza? If their goal is the former, this attack seems entirely counter productive. Bibi led a fractured government engulfed in protests over his reforms to the supreme court, with reservists promising not to show up for duty as a result. Hamas just cured that problem, Bibi’s government is united and reservists are showing up in record numbers. In America, there was a growing political movement for recognizing the vast problems and human rights abuses in Israel, to the point where Biden didn’t invite Bibi to the Whitehouse given progressive pressure and the pro Israel lobby starting to freak out. That’s gone, killing civilians at a festival, including American citizens, just snuffed out whatever political resistance to the Israel orthodoxy that existed in America. Bibi now has the political freedom to engage in a ground invasion, if not all out genocide in Gaza, and anybody who calls it out will be forced into a position of answering for the murder and rape and other attrocities carried out by Hamas. Nobody is going to go out of their way to defend terrorists who target civilians. If Hamas wanted liberation of Palestinians, they did that cause immense violence this weekend.
If, on the other hand, Hamas wants to secure power, to keep the people in Gaza angry and looking to Hamas for revenge, then this assault and the predictable Israeli response will do that cause wonders.
Well, I mean, there won’t be much left to control if Israel carries out what they’re saying they’re going to carry out.
I’m not defending Hamas or the actions taken. You are right, the consequences for Palestinians incurred from this will be nightmarish. I’m condemning the actions of Israel, and more broadly the characterization of Israel’s actions as constituting some kind of “self defense”. As I stated in a comment earlier, you wouldn’t say that native Americans who fought back against their colonizing oppressors were the aggressors in the situation. The context within which acts of violence happen is important.
I’m well aware that had I been there, had I been present at that festival it could have just as easily been me who suffered these acts of violence. I have no interest in defending those acts or the people who committed them. I am horrified that we may be witnessing the beginning of a mass culling of Palestinians. I am horrified that genocide could result from this, and that America and most western nations would aide that genocide in occurring.
Bingo. This is Hamas last grasp to retrench it’s support and benefactors in the Arab world, which unfortunately coincides with the exact time that America was FINALLY starting to come around, but that’s all dead now. The music festival rape and murder party, that they filmed, ended that.
I honestly don’t think the American and world reaction would have been nearly as strong if they just had slaughtered settlers and IDF. Soldiers are always a legitimate target, and settlers aren’t a very sympathetic group as whole. I’m not justifying killing them, but that music festival was such a horrific display of barbarism and saddism that it killed any meaningful western political support to try and reasonably restrain the tragedy in Gaza that is beginning to unfold.
How far do you want to go back and play the game of warring tribes? Egypt is only an Arab state because of Arab conquest, should they expelled?
When and why exactly did Israel expand it’s borders from its original mandate? Wars have consequences, until recently that was primarily measured by territorial gains, or losses.
Look, my post on Lemmy is fairly new, so you’ll just have to take my word (or not), that I’m no fan of Israeli settlers, or their government, but I genuinely distest people who cherry pick their history of this conflict to say, without saying, that Israel made this mess on their own, and that Arab hostility and policy has had little, to no, influence on the current situation.
Maybe you should read up a bit on multiple Arab invasions and wars that occurred in the middle 20th century to better understand why Israel is now even in the position to settle those lands.
I’m perfectly aware of the chaos and confusion that came about after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and subsequent meddling by the usual suspects - the Brits, the Americans and the French.
None of that excuses European Jews being gifted huge swathes of land by western crooks and then stealing even more without repercussions.
Learn something new everyday. I wasn’t aware the Turk Ottomans were actually Arabs, or that the Ottoman empire waged multiple wars in the mid 20th century.
You’re misinterpreting what I’m saying. I’m not saying that murdering or raping random women is okay. What I am saying is that Palestinians are being denied basic human rights and freedoms by Israel, and are being confined to mass camps and subject to routine state execution without trial. Men women children and the elderly have all been murdered in cold blood by Israel. Every week, every month, every year for the last 70 years Israel has been indiscriminately murdering Palestinians for every reason under the sun. Not murdering Hamas terrorists, murdering literal children. Children who are being forced to grow up behind concrete walls by people of a different race and culture to them. Children who are being told they’re worth less than Israeli children. Children who watch on live TV as their families, their communities, their culture itself is subject to indiscriminate violence and repression by a militarized regime that had the support of the largest nations in the world.
Netanyahu said on TV he will “turn Gaza into a desert island”. Netanyahu has openly encouraged Israeli settlers to displace Palestinians from their homes. He has openly said that Palestinians cannot have equal rights because their culture would “tarnish Israel”. Hes openly a despicable disgusting racist and he has been calling for genocide from the instant hamas attacked. Genocide is NEVER justified there is NO JUSTIFICATION for MASS MURDER. And yet we have joe biden live to the entire world saying he will supply Israel with the arms to do it.
My response is not “well they do it too”, my response is that there is NO COMPARISON here. Israel is an apartheid state where Palestinians are LEGALLY SUBHUMAN. Palestinians do not have a modern military, they do not have a global support network of hyper militarized predominately white capitalist states funding and arming them. They have no power over Israel, and no power within it either. Their only recourse is violence, the only people who can offer them any hope are violent extremists. The path to diplomacy has been closed since the mid 90s, when America and Israel slammed the door on Palestine and declared that they had no intentions to ever peacefully resolve the situation. Israel has continued their oppression and subjugation of the people of Palestine over the last 30 years. Just this year they’ve murdered over 40 children in cold fucking blood. They have AI controlled machine guns mounted on the walls of Gaza. There is absolutely no comparison here.
Note that you have not at all commented on the legal discrimination against Palestinians. The fact that they are pushed into concentration camps. The continued violence they are subjected to every single day for their entire lives. The actions of a few on one fucking day of the year do not justify the last 70 years of violence committed against Palestinians.
I never said that the women who were raped and murdered deserved it, or that it was justified in any way. It wasn’t. I’m a rape survivor. The actions taken on these innocent women are unforgivable.
What I am saying is Israel’s response to it, that being calling for the genocide of Palestinian is not justified.
It was a simple question. Not sure why you feel the need to turn this into an argument.
Again I am not looking for nuance in our interaction here. That was simply my understanding of your view from your words. Please correct them if not accurate rather than go on a crusade of attacks that are neither relevant nor constructive.
(P.S., this attitude of yours is why no one is agreeing with you. Maybe go for a walk and take some deep breaths before responding?)
You asked a loaded question and you knew it would illicit an emotional response. Don’t patronize her. Everything she has said is not wrong. GTFO with your high horse.
How do I have an attitude, or have gone on a “crusade”? Because I’m pointing out things that are true? I haven’t attacked anyone in this conversation but Netanyahu and the Israeli state. Well, and the one guy who tried to tell me that I was defending rapists who I called an asshole.
You are being disingenuous to equate the actions of Palestinians with the actions of the Israeli state. You either have no idea what the history of this region is, what the state of affairs was prior to this most recent attack, or intentionally dismissing the way that Israel has deprived Palestinians of their human rights and freedoms for the last 70 years.
Palestine COULD NOT genocide Isreal, they have no actual power over the Israeli government, they do not have a modernized military funded by the united states. The Israeli state COULD and OPENLY CALLS for genocide of palestinians. On top of years of mass murdering palestinians and increasingly robbing them of their homes their rights and their safety. They are forced to live in what is essentially a fucking mass gheto and are denied the ability to leave it.
Palestine is not a state, there is no state of Palestine - largely because Israel would never allow one to exist. Palestinians are not a monolith, the actions of some people who are palestinian do not reflect upon all other palestinians. They are a minority ethnic group who are legally deprived of their rights. To even try and say something like “Palestine is not innocent” or “Palestine calls for genocide” is an outright lie that attempts to mischaracterize palestinians as a monolithic organization that is united in their beliefs. They’re not, they’re a diverse group of people who have all manner of different perspectives and opinions. The Israeli state is a state, they set and control the laws that govern palestinians and Israelis. They are the ones who are in control of this situation and always have been.
The deaths of both palestinians (the many thousands of them that there are) and of israelis (the comparatively few of them) are both on the hands of the israeli state who have done as much as possible to ensure that the situation continues to escalate - by continuing to run an apartheid state. The actions of Hamas here are not justifiable and those who commit violent crimes should be condemned.
Never said anything supported rapists, again I have been raped before asshole and any rapist is vile and their crimes unforgivable.
Odd that you transplant the atrocities committed by those rapists onto all of Palestine. I’m not playing this game any more with you. Feel free to re-read my comments again. I’m not in the business of giving someone a platform to spread hatred of minorities, minorities who are treated as subhuman by their government.
I’m seeing a disturbing amount of focus on what the IDF is doing, when I agree with your take on this. “But they do it too” is absurd. I heard one thing on NPR this morning from someone who has been part of previous peace talks, and his stance that the American response being “We stand with Israel” is awful for resolving the conflict. Palestinians lack security and means, which is what pushed them to violence. Israel’s response with more violence is going to be like putting gasoline on the fire.
Hamas isn’t doing itself any favors, and having gone after a rave party with a bunch of youth, many of which support peaceful resolution and coexistence, is batshit crazy. The IDF going for body count with Hamas using human shields is also making this worse. Israel has a vast military superiority, and Palestinians stand no chance of an up front fight. Picking sides is choosing evil itself here.
Which race is thought subhuman throughout the entire Arab world including Palestine?
I’m native Mayan, and North American native so does that mean I get to murder your white children and kidnap/rape at will because you took my ancestral home?
No, it would be understandable if you hated the descendants of white Europeans colonists for committing (and continuing to commit) acts of genocide against your people and your culture though.
Say some Mayans formed a group to commit acts of violence on random innocent descendants of colonists. Say that they went out and shot a bunch of innocent white civilians. Would that mean it is now okay for America to commit acts of mass violence on native Americans as an act of “self-defense”? No, it obviously wouldn’t.
And I am disgusted that you would characterize the entirety of Palestinians as anti-semitic. That’s open racism and Islamophobia. Palestine is not a monolith. Palestinians have as much right to live as Israelis do. It should outrage you to see innocent Palestinians murdered in cold blood.
I mean. Which group are legally subhuman in Israeli law? Which group is denied basic human rights such as access to drinking water, political representation, voting rights, movement rights, and inheritance rights in Israeli law? Which group has been kicked out of their ancestral homes for the last 70 years, and increasingly confined within what essentially amounts to giant concentration camps?
Which side has a modern military funded by the United States?
Which group is in control of whether or not the other one has access to electricity food and water?
Yeah, no, that’d be like saying that nobody in South Africa had the moral high ground during the peak of apartheid. That’d be like saying that jewish people who attacked Nazis in Nazi germany were “just as bad”. Or saying that native americans were equally as in the wrong as their colonizers who were actively genociding them.
I will tell you just like i told my kid last night, just because someone else did something wrong does not make you doing it right.
Like, straight up, fuck the Israeli government, none of that makes targeting civilians right.
I understand exactly where you are coming from, but we have to be better than that.
Look, I don’t really like you and everytime I see your username I prepare myself for some new layer of reactionary bullshit or aggressive fighting for no reason.
That said, I think we can both admit that killing a bunch of people at a music festival is wrong.
I will leave out all other allegations other than death because it is the only evidence we have, that we can examine anyway.
We can agree that killing over 200 people at a music festival doing nothing wrong, is never justified right?
Yes, of course mass murder of civilians is never justified. We can understand how people arrived at that violent end, but is it justified no and the ones who carried out this massacre should be condemned for doing so.
I speak my mind and always will. I myself am a minority and face people trying to justify acts of violence against me and people like me all the time. When I see inexcusable actions I’ll speak up about them, if that makes some people not like me then so be it.
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There is only one side, only the Israeli state is monolithic and has power over both Palestine and Israel. Palestine is not a state. Hamas is an organization that takes actions on its own behalf.
Are you aware of how Israel and America have collectively disrupted every attempt at peaceful resolution the Palestinians have pushed for? Are you aware of how Hamas came to be the only organization that offers any false hope of a future where Palestinians have actual rights? Are you aware of the last 70 years of Israeli history, during which they have subjugated and mass murdered palestinians indiscriminately and without so much as a peep from the American government? Are you aware of how many thousands of Palestinians have been murdered by Israel in the last 10 years?
Palestine is not a state. Palestinians are the victims of an apartheid states where they are legally subhuman. Israel is a state. The state of Israel could snap their fingers and give palestinians equal rights today. They could sign that law today to give Palestinians human rights and freedoms. That would entirely destabilize the basis by which hamas continues to garner support. They couldve done it last week. Last month. Last year. Ten years ago. They could never have legally made palestinians subhuman to begin with. No, they have actively done everything they can to segregate and discriminate against palestinians at every level of society and government for the last 70 years. This situation only ever existed because of the Israeli state.
All of that can be true, and horrible, but you seem to using it to justify, or gloss over the fact that the stated goal of Hamas is to kill every Jew, including women and children.
So, what? We should root for the more genocidal, but less combat effective, party in this conflict?
Note: I’m not saying this to be for, or against, either party, but I want to be clear about the part you’re noticably leaving out.
Palestinians are not Hamas. Hamas are the only group who is even pretending to offer a solution to the ongoing subjugation of Palestinians. This situation didn’t start yesterday, its been created and shaped by 70 years of racism and atrocities committed by the Israeli state.
You should call for Israel to legally enfranchise Palestinians, for Israel to openly state that racism against Palestinians is wrong and apologize for the children women and elderly they have murdered. This situation will end when Israel undoes the harm it continues to perpetuate against Palestine, or else when they succeed in committing a genocide. Subjugated peoples who have been denied their rights will resort to violence. And rapists and other sick vile people will take advantage of the situation to commit disgusting unforgivable acts. Its possible to continue to call for Israel to cease apartheid while condemning the actions of those committing indiscriminate rape and murder.
I agree with everything you said about Isreal, and even that violence from Palestinians is expected given the circumstances. But I’d ask, what is Hamas goal? To free the Palestinians or to entrench their political power within Gaza? If their goal is the former, this attack seems entirely counter productive. Bibi led a fractured government engulfed in protests over his reforms to the supreme court, with reservists promising not to show up for duty as a result. Hamas just cured that problem, Bibi’s government is united and reservists are showing up in record numbers. In America, there was a growing political movement for recognizing the vast problems and human rights abuses in Israel, to the point where Biden didn’t invite Bibi to the Whitehouse given progressive pressure and the pro Israel lobby starting to freak out. That’s gone, killing civilians at a festival, including American citizens, just snuffed out whatever political resistance to the Israel orthodoxy that existed in America. Bibi now has the political freedom to engage in a ground invasion, if not all out genocide in Gaza, and anybody who calls it out will be forced into a position of answering for the murder and rape and other attrocities carried out by Hamas. Nobody is going to go out of their way to defend terrorists who target civilians. If Hamas wanted liberation of Palestinians, they did that cause immense violence this weekend.
If, on the other hand, Hamas wants to secure power, to keep the people in Gaza angry and looking to Hamas for revenge, then this assault and the predictable Israeli response will do that cause wonders.
Well, I mean, there won’t be much left to control if Israel carries out what they’re saying they’re going to carry out.
I’m not defending Hamas or the actions taken. You are right, the consequences for Palestinians incurred from this will be nightmarish. I’m condemning the actions of Israel, and more broadly the characterization of Israel’s actions as constituting some kind of “self defense”. As I stated in a comment earlier, you wouldn’t say that native Americans who fought back against their colonizing oppressors were the aggressors in the situation. The context within which acts of violence happen is important.
I’m well aware that had I been there, had I been present at that festival it could have just as easily been me who suffered these acts of violence. I have no interest in defending those acts or the people who committed them. I am horrified that we may be witnessing the beginning of a mass culling of Palestinians. I am horrified that genocide could result from this, and that America and most western nations would aide that genocide in occurring.
Bingo. This is Hamas last grasp to retrench it’s support and benefactors in the Arab world, which unfortunately coincides with the exact time that America was FINALLY starting to come around, but that’s all dead now. The music festival rape and murder party, that they filmed, ended that.
I honestly don’t think the American and world reaction would have been nearly as strong if they just had slaughtered settlers and IDF. Soldiers are always a legitimate target, and settlers aren’t a very sympathetic group as whole. I’m not justifying killing them, but that music festival was such a horrific display of barbarism and saddism that it killed any meaningful western political support to try and reasonably restrain the tragedy in Gaza that is beginning to unfold.
Wait, are you saying that Hamas wasn’t elected and doesn’t consistently have an approval rating between 55-75% of the population?
To retrieve the land that has been stolen from them by force. They aren’t talking about flying to Brooklyn and murdering Jews in Crown Heights.
How far do you want to go back and play the game of warring tribes? Egypt is only an Arab state because of Arab conquest, should they expelled?
When and why exactly did Israel expand it’s borders from its original mandate? Wars have consequences, until recently that was primarily measured by territorial gains, or losses.
Look, my post on Lemmy is fairly new, so you’ll just have to take my word (or not), that I’m no fan of Israeli settlers, or their government, but I genuinely distest people who cherry pick their history of this conflict to say, without saying, that Israel made this mess on their own, and that Arab hostility and policy has had little, to no, influence on the current situation.
Maybe you should read up a bit on multiple Arab invasions and wars that occurred in the middle 20th century to better understand why Israel is now even in the position to settle those lands.
I’m perfectly aware of the chaos and confusion that came about after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and subsequent meddling by the usual suspects - the Brits, the Americans and the French.
None of that excuses European Jews being gifted huge swathes of land by western crooks and then stealing even more without repercussions.
Learn something new everyday. I wasn’t aware the Turk Ottomans were actually Arabs, or that the Ottoman empire waged multiple wars in the mid 20th century.
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You’re misinterpreting what I’m saying. I’m not saying that murdering or raping random women is okay. What I am saying is that Palestinians are being denied basic human rights and freedoms by Israel, and are being confined to mass camps and subject to routine state execution without trial. Men women children and the elderly have all been murdered in cold blood by Israel. Every week, every month, every year for the last 70 years Israel has been indiscriminately murdering Palestinians for every reason under the sun. Not murdering Hamas terrorists, murdering literal children. Children who are being forced to grow up behind concrete walls by people of a different race and culture to them. Children who are being told they’re worth less than Israeli children. Children who watch on live TV as their families, their communities, their culture itself is subject to indiscriminate violence and repression by a militarized regime that had the support of the largest nations in the world.
Netanyahu said on TV he will “turn Gaza into a desert island”. Netanyahu has openly encouraged Israeli settlers to displace Palestinians from their homes. He has openly said that Palestinians cannot have equal rights because their culture would “tarnish Israel”. Hes openly a despicable disgusting racist and he has been calling for genocide from the instant hamas attacked. Genocide is NEVER justified there is NO JUSTIFICATION for MASS MURDER. And yet we have joe biden live to the entire world saying he will supply Israel with the arms to do it.
My response is not “well they do it too”, my response is that there is NO COMPARISON here. Israel is an apartheid state where Palestinians are LEGALLY SUBHUMAN. Palestinians do not have a modern military, they do not have a global support network of hyper militarized predominately white capitalist states funding and arming them. They have no power over Israel, and no power within it either. Their only recourse is violence, the only people who can offer them any hope are violent extremists. The path to diplomacy has been closed since the mid 90s, when America and Israel slammed the door on Palestine and declared that they had no intentions to ever peacefully resolve the situation. Israel has continued their oppression and subjugation of the people of Palestine over the last 30 years. Just this year they’ve murdered over 40 children in cold fucking blood. They have AI controlled machine guns mounted on the walls of Gaza. There is absolutely no comparison here.
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Note that you have not at all commented on the legal discrimination against Palestinians. The fact that they are pushed into concentration camps. The continued violence they are subjected to every single day for their entire lives. The actions of a few on one fucking day of the year do not justify the last 70 years of violence committed against Palestinians.
I never said that the women who were raped and murdered deserved it, or that it was justified in any way. It wasn’t. I’m a rape survivor. The actions taken on these innocent women are unforgivable.
What I am saying is Israel’s response to it, that being calling for the genocide of Palestinian is not justified.
So your stance is that it is okay for Hamas and Palestinians to commit acts of terror because Israel terrorized them first?
I’m not really looking for nuance here, or why you feel the way you do, just making sure I understand your view before I respond further.
How is it Hamas and Palestinians? Palestinians are not a monolith they are an ethnic group of people.
It was a simple question. Not sure why you feel the need to turn this into an argument.
Again I am not looking for nuance in our interaction here. That was simply my understanding of your view from your words. Please correct them if not accurate rather than go on a crusade of attacks that are neither relevant nor constructive.
(P.S., this attitude of yours is why no one is agreeing with you. Maybe go for a walk and take some deep breaths before responding?)
You asked a loaded question and you knew it would illicit an emotional response. Don’t patronize her. Everything she has said is not wrong. GTFO with your high horse.
How do I have an attitude, or have gone on a “crusade”? Because I’m pointing out things that are true? I haven’t attacked anyone in this conversation but Netanyahu and the Israeli state. Well, and the one guy who tried to tell me that I was defending rapists who I called an asshole.
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You are being disingenuous to equate the actions of Palestinians with the actions of the Israeli state. You either have no idea what the history of this region is, what the state of affairs was prior to this most recent attack, or intentionally dismissing the way that Israel has deprived Palestinians of their human rights and freedoms for the last 70 years.
Palestine COULD NOT genocide Isreal, they have no actual power over the Israeli government, they do not have a modernized military funded by the united states. The Israeli state COULD and OPENLY CALLS for genocide of palestinians. On top of years of mass murdering palestinians and increasingly robbing them of their homes their rights and their safety. They are forced to live in what is essentially a fucking mass gheto and are denied the ability to leave it.
Palestine is not a state, there is no state of Palestine - largely because Israel would never allow one to exist. Palestinians are not a monolith, the actions of some people who are palestinian do not reflect upon all other palestinians. They are a minority ethnic group who are legally deprived of their rights. To even try and say something like “Palestine is not innocent” or “Palestine calls for genocide” is an outright lie that attempts to mischaracterize palestinians as a monolithic organization that is united in their beliefs. They’re not, they’re a diverse group of people who have all manner of different perspectives and opinions. The Israeli state is a state, they set and control the laws that govern palestinians and Israelis. They are the ones who are in control of this situation and always have been.
The deaths of both palestinians (the many thousands of them that there are) and of israelis (the comparatively few of them) are both on the hands of the israeli state who have done as much as possible to ensure that the situation continues to escalate - by continuing to run an apartheid state. The actions of Hamas here are not justifiable and those who commit violent crimes should be condemned.
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Never said anything supported rapists, again I have been raped before asshole and any rapist is vile and their crimes unforgivable.
Odd that you transplant the atrocities committed by those rapists onto all of Palestine. I’m not playing this game any more with you. Feel free to re-read my comments again. I’m not in the business of giving someone a platform to spread hatred of minorities, minorities who are treated as subhuman by their government.
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I’m seeing a disturbing amount of focus on what the IDF is doing, when I agree with your take on this. “But they do it too” is absurd. I heard one thing on NPR this morning from someone who has been part of previous peace talks, and his stance that the American response being “We stand with Israel” is awful for resolving the conflict. Palestinians lack security and means, which is what pushed them to violence. Israel’s response with more violence is going to be like putting gasoline on the fire.
Hamas isn’t doing itself any favors, and having gone after a rave party with a bunch of youth, many of which support peaceful resolution and coexistence, is batshit crazy. The IDF going for body count with Hamas using human shields is also making this worse. Israel has a vast military superiority, and Palestinians stand no chance of an up front fight. Picking sides is choosing evil itself here.
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This is why this news makes me so depressed. It just reveals a bunch of atrocities and there’s not much I can do about it. It’s just depressing.
Which race is thought subhuman throughout the entire Arab world including Palestine?
I’m native Mayan, and North American native so does that mean I get to murder your white children and kidnap/rape at will because you took my ancestral home?
No, it would be understandable if you hated the descendants of white Europeans colonists for committing (and continuing to commit) acts of genocide against your people and your culture though.
Say some Mayans formed a group to commit acts of violence on random innocent descendants of colonists. Say that they went out and shot a bunch of innocent white civilians. Would that mean it is now okay for America to commit acts of mass violence on native Americans as an act of “self-defense”? No, it obviously wouldn’t.
And I am disgusted that you would characterize the entirety of Palestinians as anti-semitic. That’s open racism and Islamophobia. Palestine is not a monolith. Palestinians have as much right to live as Israelis do. It should outrage you to see innocent Palestinians murdered in cold blood.