I know that a lot of people are debating the accuracy of some of the more grotesque details and how much is propaganda or truth, and a number have pointed to the lack of official confirmation for some of those claims as evidence of exaggeration.
While I can’t speak to the specifics of what did or didn’t occur in Gaza or what Israel’s official stance is going to be about victim dignity vs transparency, what I can speak to is the nuances of official reporting for the theater attack in France years ago.
Initially eyewitness reports came out that discussed some of the degree of mutilation and torture that occurred over the hours the terrorists held the hostages. Which were later officially denied.
Unfortunately, we had a friend that was present at that attack, and to put it lightly the more detailed initial reports only scratched the surface of what he described having occured. He later took his own life because of the severity of the PTSD.
I don’t know how or why the official response was to say those things hadn’t happened or downplay the hyperviolence of what occurred. And I have no idea if those reasons would extend to Israel’s approach here.
But having heard firsthand eyewitness testimony of the violence and cruelty taking place to hostages of another Islamic terrorist attack, I wouldn’t at all be surprised if the rumors in this case were all true. Similarly, because of the prior situation, I don’t see the lack of official confirmation as evidence that they aren’t.
Personally, I’d hope whatever those reasons were to deny or suppress details might change in the future, as the world should know what really happens in situations like that and what horrors survivors actually went through and the burden they carry following it.
Hamas is not related to ISIS.
As the U$ fueled the rise of ISIS it’s not too surprising that they incorporated tactics from the U$ School for the Americas.
I don’t see ISIS mentioned anywhere in that comment…
He’s the same guy denying any of this happened and calling the IDF liars in a comment directly above this.
He’s just a bad person. No reason to engage him.
Thanks, I’m just going to preemptively block him, I see enough stupid without knowingly allowing more in my life.
Israel routinely terrorizes and kills Palestinians, men women and children. The result is they support Hamas, who then in turn kills men women and children.
Nuke the whole goddamn area, and when it’s one big slag of green nuclear glass, put up a monument to human idiocy and terrorism.
still a drop in the ocean of dead palestinian children.
you need the dead kids to be on a specific team before caring?
No, but the Israel supporters sure seem to.
I was listening to MSNBC the other day and they were rightfully reporting that a lot of the prisoner exchange is going on our right now or for women and children because Israel too also imprisoned children.
We’ve got to stop back and like get real some good actor here. They can both suck you know
have you considered responding to instances of that happening, instead of downplaying the butchering or children because someone reported on said butchering
That’s exactly the point. Nobody in the media or here on Lemmy or in any of the other outlets in general even cared when it happened. So instead we’ve created an environment where people have ignored one situation and are responding to another and it completely strips the entire conversation of the context that’s required to understand it.
It’s like a routinely and sadistically bullied individual going into a school and shooting up the place. It’s deplorable, it’s unethical, but the context needs to be there for any honest conversation.
How is anyone supposed to solve this mess if we’re not willing to look at root causes and original feelings from which this violence occurs?
Nobody even looks until the bullied kid has enough and decks the bully right in his fat, hypernationalist mouth, then the adults all freak out protecting the bully and the “aggressor” gets punished.
Let’s not pretend the world is any different than a high school.
and decks the bully right in his fat, hypernationalist mouth
its immensely depressing that the comparison of murdered children to a fat hypernarionalist getting decked made it all the way from your brain to your mouth without hitting a single hurdle
This is more like the bullied kid going on to shoot up a daycare that the bully’s mom/dad works at and killing indiscriminately.
If you’re going to defend that kid because they were bullied, will you defend a survivor that brutally murders them in cold blood when they grow up? And every single person related to them?
The only people who think everything is like high school are those who never mentally left it. Or are still in it.
i dont have a problem with adding context, i have a problem with downplaying the butchering of children
Nobody in the media or here on Lemmy were in any of the other outlets in general even cared when it happened
im assuming this is hyperbolic, if you actually never saw any sympathy for palestinians or mention of israels crimes on lemmy id be shocked
even reddit regularly saw highly upvoted threads about israels borderline if not outright genocidal practices
CNN, the organisation this article is from, has been reporting on it regularly
In an interview with Israeli Government spokesperson Mark Regev earlier this week, CNN’s Jake Tapper said that Israel has killed more Palestinian children in the past three weeks of the military offensive in Gaza Strip than “the total number of Israeli soldiers killed in military operations since 2006.”
“If my calculations are right,” Tapper said, “Israel has, in the last three weeks, killed more Palestinian children, more than 200, than the total number of Israeli soldiers killed in military operations since 2006, which includes the second Lebanon War, Operation Cast Lead, Operation Pillar of Defense, and now Operation Protective Edge.”
The host of CNN’s The Lead continued putting the Israeli official in the hot seat by asking “at what point does the Israeli government say, enough, we’re killing too many innocent children?”
no, i care about them all. but if you are implying theres more israeli victims you are misinforming people. its literally the opposite and not even close
can you cite the specific sentence where they implied this?
i meant OP
im aware
It would be if it was true. It’s not.
Dead Palestinian children are also a result of Hamas. Full stop.
I agree that comparatively the dead children scales are undoubtedly on the side of the Palestinians. But that does not make this ok. Any eye for an eye and all that. This is disgusting, my support for the Palestinians is unwavering but I am disgusted in their representatives that support and commit this.
It is not ok and should not be accepted, I didn’t defend it when it was Palestinian children and I won’t downplay it now when it is Israelis.
But that does not make this ok
nobody said it was.
im so sick of this attitude
I got banned the other day for saying zionists reap what they sow. No, I don’t support hamas, but apparently that’s implied for having an anti zionist perspective lol
Right wing, theocracy is bad regardless of what religion it is. I wish people would stop letting them hide behind anti-Semitism.
You’re the one who opened with a comparison.
Plenty of people are actually, you’re not and I didn’t say you are. I support Palestine and have done for my whole grown life, this was not a black or white comment.
And this is why Israel is like Ukraine and Palestine is like Russia in this war. Which is why it isn’t surprising at all that Russia and Palestine and best buds.
No it’s the other way around, Israel is like Russia grabbing more and more land over the years.
Since the mid 2000s how many Acres of land has Israel grabbed in the Gaza strip?
Yeah, that part tracks more.
To be precise Palestine is like Donbas. Difference is that Palestine was genocided longer and more cruelly, and that Palestine don’t have a poweful ally which would join the war to help them. Donbas did and lo and behold, most of western so called “left” hate them for that. They truly love every opressed people except those that fight back.
IDF says.
You’re a monstrous person.
The IDF has made a career out of normalizing the atrocities committed against the Palestinian people. 2 wrongs don’t make a right of course, but one group of people we shouldn’t be getting our news from is the fucking IDF.
Yeah no. Hamas made a career of hiding in civilian structures to maximize civilian death tolls, and you’re too focused on Israel Bad to put blame where it lies.
Good news is Hamas is about to be extinct, so this whole anger of yours will soon be moot.
And Israel created and apartheid state
That is terrible. Obviously for both sides, but this is on another level. I feel bad for all the innocents that are slaughtered, and are going to be slaughtered because of this.
I reckon it’s going to get decently worse before it gets better unfortunately.
I agree. This pot has been on and off the boil for decades, this latest boil over will be going for a while. I feel sickened by the thought of the news from the region in the coming weeks.
Did you read the article? This is absolutely not the time for “both side” ism. It’s time to condemn a clear atrocity.
To what end? What sorts of events are more likely to occur if the entire western world decides that these were subhuman attacks and does not taint the condemnation with warnings of retributive death tolls?
You likened this to someone questioning 9/11 in another comment, and that’s very right. After 9/11 the idea that “the Taliban” did atrocities and urging restraint was offensive led to 20 years of war and hundred of thousands of dead. When war fever is rising, the correct response is to tamp it down, not castigate people for saying “this is terrible, but we shouldn’t slaughter innocent people”.
The end is that babies were mass murdered. That is unequivocally BAD. And universally terrible. It’s something evil that, let’s say Nazis, terrorists do.
Sure. And what does that have to do with not questioning the death of babies Israel is inflicting in response?
And there’s the “what about”ism.
Yeah… no. Killing babies is bad period mmmkay.
That someone would mention the literal killing of babies by Israel is the whole fucking thing you were objecting to. Sorry to intrude on your righteous war fever with the small issue that the response is literally doing the thing you say is “bad period”.
OP’s (and my) stance is that killing babies is bad, period. You’re the one who seems unhappy that the tragedy you want to think about is being related to the actual killings or children that are ongoing. They’re both fucking horrible, but you don’t seem to think the Palestinian children are also innocent and deserve to live as well.
“These are monsters and don’t talk about what we’re doing in response” is the cry of the warmongers lusting for retribution.
“worry you can’t point out the literal war crimes of one side of this three sided war, because one of the other three sides also commits them”
And if you point out the hypocrisy, you’re a nazi or anti-semite. Because apparently the government and military of the country of Israel represents ALL jews.
And I guess bothering to point out that the situation isn’t a simple “take out one group and MAGIC PEACE!” solution that people seem to be implying. Plus the fact that anybody slightly questioning the official story gets shit on when the official story is basically the exact excuse the GOVERNMENT (not the people) of Israel has been waiting for to get what they want, and have made no secrets about for decades.
Maybe if we hadn’t stuck our collective noses in it for the last 80 years, they’d be a lot better off.
Israeli isn’t intentionally killing babies. They’re not going village to village and killing the elderly, infirm and infants. Hamas did that. They intentionally and indiscriminately killed children. The deaths were not collateral damage.
If Hamas attacked a bridge near the border that was dual purpose (like most bridges are). And on it at the time was a kid on a bike or in a back of a car who perished. We wouldn’t call Hamas baby murderers. That would be collateral dage. When Hamas storms a civilian house, confirms the lack of military presence and then proceeds to execute the occupants. That’s clearly worse.
Dead Palestinian babies are also the fault of Hamas, and is specifically one of the goals of these attacks.
So let’s just ignore the past 40 years of atrocities against Palestine because now it’s Jewish children getting killed instead of the normal Arab kids? You can’t have any pudding if you don’t eat your meat.
The atrocities started in the late 1800s. Well, the most recent round of atrocities.
Okay so for arguments sake let’s say every Palestinian attack is justified and every Israeli attack is not.
Now what?
Now repeat after me:
“From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.”
Repeat after me, “I am an ignorant git”
Now you’re explicitly calling for genocide
Wrong. I am calling for a counter-genocide. It’s a lot like the Israeli genocide against Palestine, but counter.
Counter genocide is still genocide. There has never been a genocide that has been unpopular amongst the people committing it.
Guess these were soldier babies? I found the open air apartheid babies comment.
Actually, they’re entirely theoretical babies lmao IDF refuses to release any actual evidence of “butchered children” while claiming that you should totally just trust the IDF reports because those dead babies are totes real according to their soldiers. Wouldn’t want to “disrespect” said dead babies by actually proving the claim. Nahhhhhh. Just trust the IDF soldiers to be truthful.
Por que no los dos?
It costs me nothing to have compassion for those suffering and dying. I can condemn horrors while feeling deep sorrow. Every news article from this region will be tragic for a while.
Don’t let terrorists crush your humanity.
So then you say “I condemn those who murdered the babies” not a version of “they had it coming”. Which is what you’re saying if you read this and post “I feel bad for the people who killed them”.
It’s the opposite of losing humanity when you can condemn murder. That is called accountability. When you excuse the murders that is victim blaming and shaming.
For someone who is arguing for both and, you have a hard time with nuance. It doesn’t help you see clearly. I would argue that it is your humanity that is lost - numbed. You’re afraid to feel the true pain of this and acknowledge who did it.
So then you say “I condemn those who murdered the babies” not a version of “they had it coming”. Which is what you’re saying if you read this and post “I feel bad for the people who killed them”.
No one fucking said that. No one here is sympathizing with fucking Hamas despite your best efforts to conflate them with the Palestinian victims. The “innocents that are going to be slaughtered because of this” aren’t the people who killed them.
Whoah now. I’m not the person you were talking to. I think an edit with some strikethroughs is in order.
I did and said it was on another level. Did you not read my comment?
Removed by mod
For every Israeli child that dies dozens of Palestinians do. One side has wealth and control of the narrative on an international level. I’m sure if Palestinians would get a lot more stories about all the bodies of the dead children if Israel didn’t have an iron grip on Gazas borders and allowed journalists near the ditches they stack the bodies up in.
Hamas, if it was a grownup organization, would have built bomb shelters for the innocent civilians it governs. Instead, it stockpiles arms among civilian buildings, and has it’s own tunnels for safety and benefit of its well-armed, well-off people- not the Palestinians. It left the Palestinians out to dry- not letting them know it was attacking, then receding back to the safety of their tunnels while their stockpiles in civilian buildings got blown up with all the poor people. It’s using them as a human shield.
Terrorist orgs and warlords never give a fuck about their populace. They serve to only enrich themselves and their allies.
The average age in the Gaza Strip is 18. Do you think that might have anything to do with Hamas not acting “grown up”? What do you expect out of one million teenagers you locked in a cell?
but its not
Hamas is an evil terrorist organization. I don’t think anyone here is saying otherwise, and I assume that’s a truth you fully agree with.
So we all agree, they’re evil. How does that excuse the killing of Palestinian civilians? It would be great if the terrorists thought about the good of their fellow man, but we’ve all recognized that they’re bad guys, so it’s pretty expected they’re not going to do what’s good for their people, but that doesn’t change that a bunch of people who are not Hamas are currently being killed by Israel.
Yes, the poor people with very limited resources should of built better infrastructure. A classic and well thought out argument.
With what resources do you expect anyone to protect a group of Palestinians? They are actually landlocked by trade blockades.
What Hamas has done is absolutely deplorable, but I don’t think that it’s too shocking that a group of oppressed people is going to see a terrorist organization as a freedom fighter when you give them no other choice.
It’s like we’ve learned absolutely nothing from our wars in the Middle East.
Hamas is a far right organization. Of course they’re not going to be building protective infrastructure for everyone, they’ll resort to violence and small minded thinking… you know, like the same kind of far right conservative government that always takes over when populations are depressed for whatever reason.
There’s no reason anyone should expect a far right group that loves guns and religion and hates women to be acting in everyone’s best interest and not their own interests in securing power at all costs.
Look, I’m angry too. It’s a difficult time to be Jewish because there is a boat load of antisemitism and hate online. And in person.
Apparently it’s not cool to hate black or Asian people, but it’s totally cool to hate Jewish people, even when it’s a thread about how terrorists literally mass murder their babies. No one is saying they are sorry. They are saying poor Palestinians.
Pretty fucking callous.
But let’s not lose sight there are folks caught between radicalism. Blanket statements help no one.
Saying things about the Israeli state is not saying things about all Jews.
So these babies worked for the state? These are state sponsored babies?
I’m quite bothered that people just accepted the Nazi propaganda that the Jewish people are some sort of modern ethnic group. When it is in fact a religion, we’ve literally allowed the Nazis to win in this capacity.
Edit: If someone is willing to conflate the Israeli people with the Jewish people, then it is by default a theocracy. Right-wing, theocracy is bad regardless of which religion it is.
I think it is much more intellectually honest to sever the notion that Israel is the Jewish people. They are not the same thing. To do so is to latch yourself to right wing theocracy.
That’s incorrect and also antisemitic.
Jews are ethnoreligious. They are an ancient indigenous people with indigenous practices, which predates their religion. The religion was born from the practices. To discount them as modern is false.
The Nazis used race to explain character traits and justify their crimes against populations, using race to say that it physically made other races more weak and less intelligent than white race, “scientifically”. That is patently false and disproven. But they used Mengele’s inhumane experiments to try to further that cause. It is in many ways the ultimate expression of white supremacy.
People do not accept that propaganda. They are confused by information like what you’ve shared, rather.
The point you need to learn and teach is to separate the people from the government. Which if you read my other comments, I do with the Palestinian people. I’m careful to condemn the terrorist groups and government, not the people they use as shields and victims. Right now, Israel is trying to secure a corridor to evacuate Gazans. But the problem is that terrorists are using child soldiers. It’s Israeli lives, not religious extremists, that are sacrificed when terrorists embed themselves with their people and then blow them up. However, people online are not able to grasp the concept. Because media reporting is deeply problematic.
The problem is that religious Jews don’t practice hate. There is nothing inherently wrong with a Jewish state. The problem is that religious extremism has taken root in the country, and it is used in a similar manner as in the USA to oppress everyone. Many people don’t want it. But like in the USA, progressive populations have a very difficult time organizing, and with a spine. So the extremists don’t, because their hate and fear unite them. Bibi has made an unholy alliance. Like in the US, something needs to change.
But you need to be honest - religious extremism is everywhere. This is the same hot topic in the United States, which already considers itself One Nation Under God. A country that expressly separates church from state still has these issues.
So, there’s your class for the day.
Setting aside all the other nonsense you put here in your post, you don’t find it at all bizarre, the statement that Israel is trying to create an evacuation corridor for people to escape their own country? Kind of strange.
Here, allow us to create a corridor for evacuation from your country, the country we are bombing. Its wild.
Clearly, you have learned nothing from the United States War on Terror. You can’t fight a terror group because they are comprised of generalized people and are not a functioning organization to destroy. They are not a nation that you can conquer.
You are much like Israel using anti-Semitism as a shield that you can hide atrocities behind. It’s kind of disgusting. I would much rather not bring religion into this whatsoever.
The void of all religious context, what I see, is an occupying force within the Palestinian nation.
The second religion is brought into this confrontation. It becomes very dangerous on either side Religion is not the answer here. It is the problem
It’s sad you feel entitled to an opinion when it’s obvious you use infotainment as your primary source of information/news. To call what I taught you about Nazi views and Mengle experiments on humans nonsense… now I know you are not arguing in any informed manner or good faith.
Hope you get informed before you hurt your friends with your ignorance IRL.
Decades of oppression, povertyv isolation and killing turns people into monsters.
if you were to take a phalastinian child and put him/her in a peaceful/loving environment surely they would become an ideal citizen.
Solution is peace as it has always been.
You don’t even need to take them out of Gaza. There are 2 million people there and Israel estimated 1000 of them took part in the attack. Decades of oppression turns a tiny sliver into murderous extremists, and yet the whole area gets the retribution.
wut?
do you realize 40% of gaza populations is children under 14? do you realize the west bank has nothing to do with this?
Already ~260 Palestinian children have been killed. That number is only going to go up. No sympathy for them? What about sympathy for the Palestinians living under the rule of Israel and Hamas who haven’t had a real election in almost two decades, and whose oppressors can be best described as ‘bad’ (Israel) and ‘worse’ (Hamas)?
People miss this like it’s some ideological struggle. Like siding with Palestine or Israel inherently are causes with some abstract values attached to them. They’re not, not at their core. It’s just a blood feud. It’s just one big, abhorrent, ugly blood feud with no end in sight.
We should have listened to Hannah Arendt.
Are we doing a dead child competition? In a thread about slaughtered children, what-abouting other slaughtered children is pretty callous. Here is one of multiple stories that cover the monstrosities happening to Palestinian children. Now that the dead child reporting is fair and balanced can we get back to mourning the tragedy that this thread is about?
Are we doing a dead child competition?
No, that’s the fucking point. Losing track of sympathy for the people on the ground is dehumanization and to be avoided, regardless of the horrific crimes of Hamas. I was responding specifically to the commenter aoove me in the chain.
What the hell are you even talking about. You’re just using talking points.
Media loves Palestinians. Guess what - Hamas, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, they all love when you conflate them with the poor Palestinians. But they are separate. Palestinians get screwed by Hamas, etc. Western media coverage is deeply problematic. You should know this by now with all the disinformation campaigns online the past 7 years.
To answer your question, there is a shitload of sympathy for them. But you don’t get to do unrepentant violence. Raping and murdering babies.
Please do not ignore Palestinian leaders who steal aid from their own people, brainwash their children to hate Jews, and spout rhetoric that the Jews caused the Holocaust.
Please do not reduce it to a blood feud. It only shows you’re a morally outraged outsider and got no clue. This is hate and racism. It’s middle eastern politics. It’s a proxy war, and it’s a tale of having democracy in a deeply corrupt and autocratic region.
The best thing you can do is stay out of it and stick to your peaceful talking point. Because that’s what we need. Not more uneducated “advocates.” It serves no one.
do you realize 40% of gaza populations is children under 14? do you realize the west bank has nothing to do with this?
Media loves Palestinians. Guess what - Hamas, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, they all love when you conflate them with the poor Palestinians. But they are separate. Palestinians get screwed by Hamas, etc. Western media coverage is deeply problematic. You should know this by now with all the disinformation campaigns online the past 7 years.
Didn’t realize those 260 children were secret Hamas-Iranian-Syrian-Lebanese agents. I apologize.
To answer your question, there is a shitload of sympathy for them. But you don’t get to do unrepentant violence. Raping and murdering babies.
Don’t know where I said that was okay, but go off, I guess.
Please do not ignore Palestinian leaders who steal aid from their own people, brainwash their children to hate Jews, and spout rhetoric that the Jews caused the Holocaust.
Again, I don’t know where I said otherwise, but keep tilting at that windmill.
Please do not reduce it to a blood feud. It only shows you’re a morally outraged outsider and got no clue. This is hate and racism. It’s middle eastern politics.
… what exactly do you think a blood feud is, if not hate and racism? I’m curious.
It’s a proxy war, and it’s a tale of having democracy in a deeply corrupt and autocratic region.
That’s some ‘they hate us for our freedumbs’ level post-9/11 spirit, right there.
You’re beyond out of touch. Are you from the region?
Would you call systemic racism in the USA a blood feud? Would you call white supremacy a blood feud? I think all the words you’re using don’t mean what you think they mean.
Nobody gives a fuck about Palestininan children since 1948. Why would they start caring now.
Leaving this from the Reddit thread, since it was put so well:
I look forward to seeing how this is excused, justified, and quietly cheered on by some of our fine members. No doubt the babies were “guards” in the “open air prison” and were in fact apartheid babies.
And hey, you can’t blame people for murdering dozens of babies, as long as those people have hard lives. And of course being known as the sort of people who would murder a bunch of babies has NOTHING to do with why they have hard lives.
Edit: Ok so far the top winners are, in no particular order:
“They had it coming”
“I’m not saying that they had it coming, but they had it coming.”
“Give peace a chance.”
And my favorite, the short lived “It didn’t happen.”
Add this one to your list: “Hamas is the monster Israel created.”
Enjoy no replies because the sheer amount of documentation of Israeli support for Hamas over any peaceful coalition is overwhelming.
Israel has offered peace deals time and again, but Palestinian leaders rject any deal that isn’t the destruction of Israel.
The only deal Israel has ever offered involves ceding over the majority of the West Bank. If Palestinian statehood were ever properly recognized, Israel would be in violation of illegal occupation of Palestinian land. The peace offers are bullshit.
Palestine has never been a country, at any time in human history. Before the Six Day War, the land currently viewed as Palestine belonged to three of the countries that attempted genocide against Israel.
Israel has offered Palestinians pre-1967 borders, effectively establishing a Palestinian state, and those offers were rejected because Israel would still exist. You may want to Google the Six Day War and see that the land was taken not from Palestine, but from Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. This is why calling Israelis “colonizers” is so pants-on-head stupid. You’re not colonizing land you won in a war with established powers. Otto Von Bismarck was not colonizing during German Unification.
Here, I did it for you. There’s even a helpful graphic.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War
Territorial changes: Israel captures and occupies the Golan Heights from Syria, the West Bank (incl. East Jerusalem) from Jordan, and the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt[9][10]
This isn’t a debate. These things all actually occurred. The only party seriously considering Palestinian statehood has always been Israel, and has never been Palestinian leadership.
The one time Palestinian leadership considered it, Hamas took over.
Let’s see how many sides there are to your face. Do you blame the US for ISIS?
Yes
deleted by creator
Is that a trick question? I thought ISIS arising due to US actions was an accepted fact, not up for debate
Of course it’s not up for debate, but the other poster won’t say that because it goes against their argument about Israel not creating Hamas.
Yes
Absolutely, duh.
Absofuckinglutely
no need to justify this, the scale of dead kids is still tipped HEAVILY towards Palestinians.
Do you mean more Palestinian children have been killed or the Palestinians have killed more children? Isn’t it great that its ambiguous enough that I even need to ask?
Solving terrorism with war crimes sounds about right for 2023
Isn’t it great that its ambiguous enough that I even need to ask?
thats the things. its not. the number are out there for everybody to see but you just dont hear about it.
95% of all victims of this conflicts are palestinians. lets stop pretending the numbers are similar.
“well we’re really just evening the dead baby numbers” with the implication that that even remotely makes this justifiable.
No, I’ll never support anyone who murders babies, be it whatever side or reason. You coming in here and defending baby murdering screams “both sideing” baby murdering as something that’s even remotely defendable. It isn’t, do some self reflection, same to whoever felt the need to upvote such messed up worldview.
For years I’ve been arguing for the plight of Palestinians, but to hear such disgusting arguments from someone who holds the same goal (freedom of oppression for Palestinians) and spouting that without shame is on par with those who deny the apartheid policies of Israel (I’d argue it’s worse, but at this point it’s the shit Olympics of opinion, and they’re all on the podium).
Pretending to be talking about good and evil is defending murdering children. 300 children (according to The Guardian who quotes Palestine authorities) died from Israel strikes already. It’s not like killing in uniform and with “precision” strikes is less killing.
It is exactly both sides, although there are qualitative (hamas raids of innocents were somewhat more brutal and violent) and quantitative (many more palestinians dead) differences.
Then there is the whole historical analysis which is a whole other debate.
What the hell are you talking about good and evil for?
Have I so far defended Israel’s response? No, and I don’t actually agree with their response either. The proper approach wasn’t to escalate and as they are in the position of power they have that choice. That still doesn’t mean I’ll go in threads defending actions that have lead to baby murdering, something so vile and heartless that only a blind ideologue could ever defend it or use it as a “but they were worse” argument.
Blind ideologues might hate it, but sometimes the two sides are shit, and in the case of IDF and Hamas, they both are, and Palestinians are in between. That still doesn’t give anyone the right to kill children.
Nobody is defending murdering babies you are ridiculous
No you are ridiculous for thinking what you wrote isn’t somehow interpretable as that.
You write:
no need to justify this, the scale of dead kids is still tipped HEAVILY towards Palestinians
95% of all victims of this conflicts are palestinians. lets stop pretending the numbers are similar.
But somehow this isn’t a justification on literal dead children. Yeah sure buddy. Could’ve lead with “well there’s no excuse, but there have been far more dead Palestinian children in this conflict”, instead you wrote that drivel. That’s why I’m saying you’re both side-ing literal baby murder.
What I will say on this, and check my most recent comment I will never defend these actions, is that Israel has an enormous defense industry that is linked, by design, to their huge grasp on the IT industry.
I have no reason to believe this isn’t true, but I also do have reason to believe that Israel has a better grasp of disseminating information that is beneficial to them and they have contacts in the absolute highest echelons of global tech and defense.
This is disgusting and shameful and I would have hoped for better from the oppressed.
I feel horrible for the children, but I assume this level of violence is happening due to the fact that these “border communities” are the houses/land/farms the Israelis have been strait up stealing from Palestinians lately… saw a video of them just throwing a family out on the street and stealing their house for, whatever bullshit reason they had. Israel has been taking people’s homes and lives for decades expanding their borders illegally.
No one should murder children. But you probably shouldn’t steal people’s homes and put children in them.
A swing and miss bro, but at least you tried your best to whatabout/bothsides 👍
(see other comment on Gaza vs. West Bank)
I feel horrible for the children, but
There should be no ‘but’ when talking about the murder of children and leave it at that!
I feel like Lemmy is at a critical junction of its future development and sentiments like these are what turn people away.
Lemmy has truly shown an ugly side these last few days and it’s sad to see.
Lemmy has shown that it understands that Israel murders more innocents and children. Israeli genocide is cool tho, gotcha.
Just a sickening world view but you exemplify it well.
When people use but in this context, it’s not a rationalization, it’s a contextualization. For some reason we keep going back like Israel has done absolutely nothing wrong in any capacity, and that’s just plainly false.
Surely you can at least admit that Israel has not created an environment conducive towards peace.
The way we talk doesn’t lend itself well to making geopolitical statements vs valuation statements. Did Israel’s government create the circumstances that led to this – yes, geopolitically speaking. But in terms of making a value statement, I lay the full blame at the actual murderers’ feet.
Obviously not every Palestinian murders civilians. Nothing can justify that. The terrorists are still bad people and squarely to blame, Israel’s actions just pointed them in a direction.
agree, but it’s not just lemmy, it’s every social media site. On bigger ones like reddit it’s just easier to only interact with specific groups. lemmy has the problem of being very small, so if a bunch of people leave it will hurt more. It feels like this conflict has always been unique in how polarizing it is.
That would be in the west bank, not Gaza. Gaza has very steady borders and no encroachment for a long time and Gaza is where the attack came from.
I admire that you’ve come with facts. Hopefully people will actually learn rather than parrot the narrative.
Like, Iran and Syria planned this. They literally gas their own people. They just brutally attacked hundreds of innocent people. How is Lemmy apologizing a clear atrocity? How can you be so frickin callous and blind to the hate?
It’s like going to New Yorkers on 9/11 saying, “yeah, it was inevitable” and then blaming Wall Street or some sort of thing.
Those New Yorkers would have been incredibly prescient to say that in the moment.
That’s not the case in Gaza. Gaza has the 1967 borders and they’ve been respected since the mid 2000s when Israel forcibly evicted all Jewish residents beyond the borders in an attempt to engineer peace.
There is not land based justification for what Gazans are doing.
