how is a protest march in a city, on an island, in a different continent going to do anything in Gaza?
Sometimes, solidary is better than nothing when you feel powerless.
With a lot of effort, we can hope to make London as bad as Gaza?
You’re going to bring in Nazi SS Storm troopers, build a wall around it, and then kill all the native Londoners?
Are you asking how protest works in general? The place doesn’t matter much. Do you want them to protest in gaza? They can’t go there
The UK is one of Israel’s strongest supporters after the US, so pressure from them can do a lot.
why would the UK government care what it’s citizens want? I suppose there’s a first time for everything but I rather suspect that it wont be this time
Because Hamas tactics include an information war to win sympathies.
Good question, popular opinion demonstrated against Apartheid and collective punishment gets democratic governments to enforce sanctions, and put economic pressure on the violating country. This is how south african apartheid ended, through slow economic and sanction pressure.
It’s not, but generally in democracies, people protest to let their own government and their fellow citizens know how they feel about an issue.
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When the issue is domestic, they are generally seeking a policy change.
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When the issue is foriegn, they usually hope to influence their own country’s foriegn policy stance/actions on that issue.
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Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Straight from the horse’s mouth
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Promoting Piers Morgan in any shape or form is a bad thing.
Great to see the world has some people of conscience.
London is the fair town for terrorists worldwide.
Genuine ask - no BS or anything here. Has anyone else seen like the same three posters on this sublem bombard it with some of the most hilariously pro-Hamas biased content I’ve ever seen? Like, effectively personal blogs being passed around here as literal legitimate news being reported. It’s WILD to see in real time.
So every defender of human rights is pro-Hamas according to your twisted logic.
Last night the families released a statement calling the intense bombing on Friday “the worst of all nights”, due to the uncertainty of the safety of their loved ones during IDF strikes.
And guess what, people on the other side of the fence are saying it, now imagine going through this personally with all your family. Not able to reach your loved ones, without food, Internet, or electricity. I am sure if you go through this hell you would change your tune
Generally you use the most firepower directly before committing ground troops, so yes I would expect last night to be the worst night.
I don’t have an eye got usernames, but I did notice some really dodgy websites getting posted and people, as they are, just upvote on how much they like the article title rather than the contents ot even the surrouding information.
Welcome to Lemmy
Meanwhile Reddit is the Israel propaganda machine, so I guess swings and roundabouts?
depends on the sub for reddit. Worldnews is heavy Israel, while publicfreakout and therewasanattempt are very heavy palestine
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R/worldnews is a shithole, always has been. Before it became under powermod control there was a split and r/animetitties was the place for news. However I think since the API change that place isn’t as busy anymore.
On lemmy they’re called communities.
Also calling for a ceasefire is not a “pro-Hamas” position. It feels like you’re showing bias here more than anyone else. The Independent is also a large and well respected news outfit, and while many such publications have a lot of opinion pieces that are basically blog posts, this isn’t one of them and is in traditional news format - they’re reporting on a planned protest likely to be attended by a considerable number.
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Lmao you’re reminding me of this random friend I made on Clash of Clans because of my username, he was a meth head and thought he’d found a kindred spirit. My name originates from a software package from Windows 95, Tweak Tools 95, and a pick to make a 90s hacker name.
I love how you read what I said - which wasn’t in relation to this direct article - and then strawmanned me so much I’m fucking choking on straw irl from it. Dude, take a break :p
Lol sorry if I was a little harsh. But you didn’t link to any of the blog posts that you referred to, and the post you commented on isn’t a blog.
lol no worries I get it, thanks for apologizing <3
What about a cease-fire’s particularly pro-hamas? Cease-fire means both directions.
The Hamas active members can have time to hide and reset for another attack if there is a cease fire. They’ll refortify the hospitals and schools they use to hide, as well as gather civilans for shields. They can set up booby traps for a ground invasion into Gaza.
Well then, best just carpet bomb all of gaza then right?
How bad do you think Israel is at carpet bombing? Honestly, multiple weeks of carpet bombing, by any modern estimate, should dismantle all of Gaza. That very demonstrably has not happened.
So are they really, really bad at it or are they not attempting it?
Have you not seen the satellite images?
Yes, of course I have. I am aware of what wars do.
Then you would see the absurdity of your statement.
I’m sure they’ve already done all that considering they were the ones that initiated this conflict. They had to have known a ground invasion was likely after attacking Israel.
They’ve been mostly locked in place since 8th October. There’s no way for them to regroup and refortify with Israel dropping bombs on anything which looks like a terrorist. A ceasefire would let them regroup in civilian buildings, which I think we all want to avoid. They have to qualms with using children as human shields, so we need to keep the terrorists pinned down and get away from those children.
A ceasefire where Hamas gets to keep their hostages is a huge Hamas victory. Advocating for something which gives Hamas a huge victory will be interpreted by some as support for Hamas.
These demonstrations are full of Palestinian flags, without an Israeli one in sight. It’s hard to argue against them being partisan
If the goal is not to harm your own hostages, you wouldn’t be using bombs, which is real using very heavily right now. It makes a literally no sense.
Terrorists come kill your family. You call the police, and someone replies “there’s been enough violence.” Meanwhile the terrorists continue to advocate for killing your extended family as well as numerous other families, and you know these threats are credible because they continue trying
How sensible is that, to you?
So this is definitely justifying:
- expelling 1.5Mln from their homes
- carpet bombing residential neighbourhoods
- restricting the access to clean drinking water, electricity, food and fuel for the general population
- preventing people fleeing the war zone
- Blocking humanitarian aid to enter
- bombing areas that they told the civilian population is safe
- preventing humanitarian aid to enter the enclave
- Cutting the access to the internet and telephone, so people are not even able to call an ambulance or check how their loved ones are fairing.
- While actively refusing to admit that with their actions they have caused a humanitarian catastrophe, despite what UN, Red Crescent and I don’t know how many more international agencies are saying.
- Refusing to even call for a humanitarian pause to let some needed aid enter the enclave
while killing 10 times more civilians, babies, kids and women and causing immensely more suffering for the innocents.
You can’t be a genius to see that one evil doesn’t give you the right or the moral high ground to commit even greater evil.
preventing humanitarian aid to enter the enclave
Demonstrably not happening, as there are aid convoys in south gaza right now.
preventing humanitarian aid to enter the enclave
I think this is really shitty of Egypt, Jordan, etc to do, yes. Israel and the US tried to get them to take refugees. Took forever to even get them to send aid.
The rest is pretty typical of urban combat, so no, not genocide. If you want civilians to not die in an urban warzone, you ask them to leave the warzone. Urban fighting is ludicrously dangerous.
Are you kidding. How many trucks have been allowed. Do you think they are enough?!? We are talking about 2.5 Mln people.
You are writing all this from the comfort of your own house, people there don’t have a roof over their heads. You can’t even fathom what conditions they are living in. Are they all deserve to suffer?
How many more civilians need to die to condemn Israel? 10K, 20K, 50K, 1M?
How many trucks have been allowed.
It’s weird you think Israel is the cause here
Are they all deserve to suffer?
I would prefer none of this happen, but Hamas does not value human life. It’s truly tragic.
I find it very strange that your inference is that I don’t care.
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They let a token number of trucks in to give them a talking point… just like you used it now.
70 trucks were let in since October 7th. The UNRWA had something like 200-500 trucks going in daily before the war…
So normally there would have been 11,000 truck deliveries for humanitarian aid in this window, now there are only 70… 0.6% of need is satisfied, prewar need at that…
All to give you a talking point.
Yeah, they let the aid trucks in, the bombed the aid after it had been delivered.
That is a gross misrepresentation.
The IDF killed most of the Israelis on October 7th.
This is disgusting and even though I don’t know you, I know you’re better than this kind of comment.
Innocent people died.
The IDF killed its own citizens on October 7th. This is a statement of fact backed by survivors. So whoever deleted my comment stop censoring the truth please
https://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/israels-military-shelled-burning-tanks-helicopters/
It’s less the factual nature and more the presentation and what is implied.
What do you mean presentation?
What’s the last cease fire that wasn’t broken by regular rocket fire from Gaza?
Please re-read my comment lmao. :p
dunno what they’re expecting Britain to do.
Stopping any support for isrel and pushing for others to do so as well would help. Or at least send humanitarian aid to gaza.
Unfortunately most humanitarian aid ends up in Hamas’ hands
As a permanent member of the UN Security Council the UK can call for a ceasefire and the release of all hostages.
We could, but we won’t. Have you seen who’s currently in charge of our country? Even if Starmer gets into power, no ceasefire will be called for.
Our country has a vested interest and lots of money invested in Israel, same as the US.
There is pressure from within the Labour party to have Starmer call for a ceasefire. However he is very much Tory Lite.
He’s a budget Blair. I’m surprised he hasn’t purged all of the left leaning Labour members yet, I thought he had completed that a while back.
I dunno, he’s more posh than Blair, but he’s definitely less capable.
And how does the UN/Israel punish Hamas for the hundreds of civilians that were massacred on the day?
Collective punishment against civilians isn’t punishing hamas, its helping them with their recruitment efforts.
That doesn’t answer the question
It answers your implication that only collective punishment is viable.
That wasn’t my implication. My question didn’t have any implication to it.
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This is the best summary I could come up with:
The United Nations said the move would prevent aid from reaching Palestinians trapped inside the bombarded territory, with Tel Aviv continuing to fire air strikes on the 25-mile stretch.
Elizabeth El-Nakla and her husband Maged travelled to the region before the Hamas attack on Israel on 7 October, in which Palestinian militants killed 1,400 people, and have been trapped since Tel Aviv’s subsequent retaliation.
“We support Israel’s right to self defence, in line with IHL (international humanitarian law), and continue to push for the protection of Palestinian civilians,” Mr Cleverly tweeted.
Ahead of the weekend, Kyle Gordon, who is leading the force’s command team, told a press briefing: “If somebody is calling for jihad specifically against Israel the officers will intervene, gather the information, report it back into us and we’ll be working with colleagues (from counter-terrorism) in relation to what the best course of action is.”
The head of the Crown Prosecution Service told The Daily Telegraph: “In any case arising from the current protests, there needs to be a very careful consideration of the actual circumstances in which something is said, or a flag is waved or actions are taken.”
The issue is causing splits in the Labour Party, with Imran Hussain, shadow minister for the New Deal For Working People and MP for Bradford East, breaking ranks to demand a ceasefire.
The original article contains 808 words, the summary contains 224 words. Saved 72%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Israel is deliberately mass.murdering civilians and flattening cities. They did the same thing during their war in Lebanon in 2006 - levelling urban areas like Dahiyeh to cause disproportionate damage as a deterrent. I’ve read that they’ve dropped the equivalents of 33 tons of explosives for every square kilometre of Gaza. To inflict this on one of the densest urban areas on earth on a civilian population is pure evil.
Hamas doesn’t stop murdering innocent civilians, deliberately targets civilians and avoids military targets, and then hides behind civilians.
Israel needs to eradicate Hamas, but can’t do so as Hamas hides behind civilians. Options are to allow Hamas to butcher the innocent, or go after Hamas with civilian casualties.
I don’t like it, but the extermination of Hamas is necessary. The Gaza civilians are in a terrible position if they withdraw their support of Hamas, Hamas will just execute them. It’s shitty, and terrible, but this is all on Hamas and only highlights the need for their removal.
This is “war on terror” levels of idiocy.
How the hell can we ignore the mindless murdering of innocent families. This is not war it is the genocide that has been planned for a long time
I don’t think that things are black and white here. But I have to agree a little.
Israel did become a nationalistic autocracy and has deeply corrupt leadership. Still, not doing anything when they were attacked on the scale Hamas recently did, would be just stupid.
The problem is that they should have kept the civilian casualties to minimum. Ideally under the amount of Israelis that died tho deflate grudges over time and show some degree of good will.
Then again Hamas has never shown such incentive. And differentiating between Palestine civilians and Hamas collaborators or members is not an easy binary task.
The problem is that they should have kept the civilian casualties to minimum
If they’re not trying to keep civilian casualties at a minimum, then why are so few Gazans dead considering the amount of ordinance at play?
We know why so few Israelis are dead, considering comparable amounts of firepower, but Gaza does not have the Iron Dome.
I’d their bombing was indiscriminate, surely they’d have killed more people, yeah? Do you think they’re just really inept, or do you think perhaps they might actually be trying not to kill civilians, and that’s just hard given the geography of the theater?
I absolutely agree that they can (looking only at military capability) wipe the floor with Palestine with indiscriminate bombardment in a few days.
But saying that not using that ability means they do enough to avoid civilian casualties is a pretty big jump in logic.
Military ability isn’t everything, geopolitics and market dependance exist. if they actually did that immediately, the response from international community wouldn’t be as mild as it’s now. So they actually can’t.
What I am saying is that there’s a full gradient of effort when it comes to avoiding or encouraging civilian casualties (and not giving a damn about them is in the middle).
The voices of Israeli ruling politicians before and after the start of this year’s conflict doesn’t exactly inspire a confidence that enough is being done to prevent them. Some used strategies even increase them unnecessarily with doubtful military gains.
Or perhaps people should consider that Hamas is using casualties among Palestinians to win the war against Israel. Because right now it seems like it is working pretty well.
Additionally, Gaza has 5855 people per square kilometre. I don’t know if people even realise this.
So bombing the shit out of the place is ok? Deaths are ok?
These people are in a pressure cooker, so increase the pressure, push them south and bomb the evac routes, don’t let fuel into hospitals or enough food in to Gaza.
Hamas are assholes, but when you start to justify civilian deaths, you’re no longer the good guy, yourself. They killed x, so we kill y.
This is looking increasingly like an annexation (especially of the north). Hamas aren’t in the West Bank, it’s run by Fatah, but Israel still rules it with an iron fist and keeps popping up more settlements. Moral actions under international law isn’t something that concerns them.
But saying that not using that ability means they do enough to avoid civilian casualties is a pretty big jump in logic
The word “enough” is not found anywhere in my posts, because I think they could, an should, do more.
“It isn’t genocide” and “civilian casualties are a tragic feature of every war” are not blanket support of the status quo.
I believe Israel believes they have done everything possible. They are undeniably going above and beyond to act with restraint. I still believe they could do more, especially by putting up a military hard point in the south for aid. I think this would be costly, and dangerous, but is both morally correct and something that would help pave the way for instilling peace after this war.
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And continuous violence/genocide in Tigray region of Ethiopia. No one mass-protests those in NY, London or Berlin…
@burchalka no, they don’t, but although it didn’t get airtime, the US for example expressed opposition to it and leveled economic sanctions against Ethiopia for it.
And Uyghur genocide.
I don’t think it’s difficult to understand that people feel moved by atrocities that are closer to them. The UK directly helped create present day Israel and the colonisation of Palestinian land. Our current government also supports Israel in their attack on Gaza, meaning our taxes are being used to fund weapons and aid the genocide that’s happening right now. Of course people are protesting here.
Does it mean people don’t care about Tigray? Or course not, but we have less direct influence over what’s happening there.
Ethiopia isn’t a major “Ally” like Israel is.
Tigray, West Papua, Oromia, Nagorno-Karabakh, Western Sahara, Ituri, Xinjiang…
But that does not mean we should be silent on this latest. Really, we should be letting our representatives know we protest all of these things.
But people don’t protest these things. Most do not give a fuck. They are very invested though, when Jews are involved.
@Syntha only if the Jewish people happen to be living in Israel. Western news media is way more interested in Israel than it is in almost any of the other countries I mentioned.
I think this is partly to do with the US because it seems to loom especially largely in their political consciousness.
People care more about things they know than things they never heard of. Someone posted a very informative documentary about West Papua over in worldwithoutus recently and it was interesting to see how many youtube comments on it were from people who had previously had no idea what was happening there! And now they know, they do care.
Probably because the west supports the genocidal country, and the U.S. is directly funding the genocide (in the 10s of billions, I believe). So, theoretically, if there is enough dissent from western civilians, the west could exert enough political and economic pressure on Israel to stop the genocide and end the apartheid (since Israel is so dependent on the west).
I admit, I’m a bit ignorant of the most of the other genocides listed above, but I don’t think the U.S. directly supported the genocidal groups to the same degree, and I think those genocides would’ve needed direct military action to end. In the case of Xinjiang, I don’t think the U.S. could do anything about that without causing great harm to itself.
The US was literally refuelling Saudi Aircraft mid-air so they could continue to bomb Yemen. I don’t think there was ever such a level of Involvement from any western country in the Israel-Palestine conflict.
300 000 - 400 000 deaths, btw. Probably an order of magnitude worse than the whole Israel conflict, in merely a decade.
How do you explain such an enormous level of difference in how much people care, if it’s not about the Jews?
I think Israel is doing exactly the opposite of ignoring the mindless murdering of their innocent families.
Youcve counted and compared the deaths of Israelis to Palestinians, plus considered the Palestinian children locked up with no rights or appeals etc. for at least 3 generations?
Is this about numbers?
“I think Israel is doing exactly the opposite of ignoring the mindless murdering of their innocent families.”
For you, it indeed sounds like a tit-for-tat kill-for- kill system. If we were doing that, which we aren’t and shouldn’t be, then there’d need to be a lot more dead Israelis to balance the playing field. Obviously you can see why that is a horrendous idea.
Well, if we’re going to the numbers, do remind me, how many Israeli civilians have died due to IDF using them as human shields? And what does that very low number tell you?
This is one of the many reasons why it’s completely pointless to play the numbers game in this war.
Dude, I’m agreeing. You’re the one who’s making it out to be some sort of tit for tat kill for kill for scenario.
Well let’s agree to wtf is this discussion anyway then
So if terrorist government A kills civilians, it’s okay for murderous government B to take revenge by killing more civilians? Why does it matter where these people live, the only thing that matters is to stop killing them, depriving them of their freedoms and rights and hey, maybe even try to give them a happy life?
Government B’s primary goal is not to kill civilians. A’s is. This is not a numbers game, it matters why and in what context things are done.
Ends do not justify means. Killing civilians, especially children, is abhorrent.
Yes war is indeed bad. That’s why Israel tried to avoid war.
You mean Hamas attack on Israeli citizens right? Just to clarify
You mean you ignore the atrocities, apartheid and land theft that built up to this? The palestinians just naturally and gave up their homes and rights for a few generations?
You can’t commit apartheid outside of your country. That’s not what “apartheid” means. Arabs in Israel have full citizenship and proportionate representation in government.
You really shouldn’t argue this, since it always goes both ways in every single scenario.
When have Palestinians invaded Israeli land? Israelis are still creating illegal settlements right now.
But more importantly, this genocide is not a two way street. There are terrorist attacks but that pales in comparison to an all out genocide. When have Palestinians leveled whole neighborhoods or dropped chemical weapons on people? Israelis are determined to kill or at least displace the millions of remaining Palestinians and it’s disingenuous to say that’s the same thing the Palestinians are doing.
Bro, it was Iraq Lebanon Syria Yemen and friends who literally drove their Jews to Israel as refuges of genocides.
If you don’t consider them Palastinians that’s fine.
Palastinians regularly invade Israel with rockets and have also done so with suicide bombings and shooting and knifing etc. and sadly on the 7th with something much more horrible than anything of earlier levels.
Yes, some Israelis are creating illegal settlements, but they’re not condoned by Israel and are taken down.
Yes, some Israelis are creating illegal settlements, but they’re not condoned by Israel and are taken down.
What the fuck? What the action fuck? Just… Look things up before commenting, man.
I live in Israel. It’s entirely possible you and I don’t agree on what an illegal settlement is. But you are welcome to provide the reading material you mentioned…
When have Palestinians invaded Israeli land?
During the many times the Arab League declared war. They lost though, which is why they’ve been limited to Gaza and West bank.
But more importantly, this genocide is not a two way street. There are terrorist attacks but that pales in comparison to an all out genocide. When have Palestinians leveled whole neighborhoods or dropped chemical weapons on people? Israelis are determined to kill or at least displace the millions of remaining Palestinians and it’s disingenuous to say that’s the same thing the Palestinians are doing.
It very much is. The situation in Palestine and Israel has always been very back and forth, with terrorist attacks from both sides, military strikes into each other’s territories, the deaths of innocent civilians, such and such. No one is a saint here, except for those caught in the crossfire.
The Arab league time point conveniently ignores the prior land incursions into Palestine. It is like a climate change denier arguing based upon a limited or specific time bound period. Not t9 mention that Israel has consistently mentioned pushing the Palestinians into the sea. An extremist Right Wing party in charge is exactly what we see leading to the inhumane mass murders. No different to Bosnia
And ignoring the Arab League point is also conveniently ignoring Russia, France and Britain occupying Palestine, as well as the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and WW1. Though, I’m not going to insult you for that, since that’s against the rules.
I have no religious affiliation or interest. What increasingly caused concern was the map of Israel 50 years ago vs the size today. Also, the incessant extremist approach of settlers bulldozing palestinian homes with support of superior force with no recourse for the dispossessed. I have never been in that position, but if my neighbour turned up with guns, knocked down my house and took my land, there would be an expectation of consequence
If you’re referring to the massacres being a consequence (and not justifying, I hope), know that Gaza and Hamas separate themselves from the West Bank, which is where the settlements are occurring.
There aren’t settlements in Gaza.
Israel literally offered Palestine 99% of the west bank, all of Gaza, and half of Jerusalem, and Palestinian leadership turned it down because the deal included Israel existing.
Did they?
However, Hamas has launched attacks for Israeli injustive against Palestinians outside Gaza before. See the crisis in 2021.
So what’s beautiful about this is that even if I were to agree with you about whether or not Israel is an apartheid state, and if there is theft of land or not - and make no mistake those things are serious and evil when true - then they are still very far from genocide, I believe the intent of that comment by “mindless murdering”, which is the clear open objective and stance of Hamas.
then they are still very far from genocide,
No it’s not. There are actual pogroms going on in the West Bank right now.
Can you link references?
This is not a genocide. Some of these are horrible incidents of innocents hurt, and justice must be served for any settler or rogue soldier involved.
But this is far from genocide and certainly isolated instances.
If you call this genocide, you kill the meaning of that word.
London: Hey Israel, stop the genocide!
Israel: …
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To be fair the Muslim nations originally started all this.
This is not war it is the genocide that has been planned for a long time
What’s your opinion on why Israel is so bad at actually achieving genocide?
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I mean take a look at this shit. Does this look like failing to you?
