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We know genocide, we had one
And no, the Herero and Nama genocide wasn’t a genocide
Those were practice rounds?
Sparkling Genocide
Being on the wrong side of history on the same topic 75 year apart
Right now it seems like the effect of people who got bullied in the past is likely to bully people in the future
As a German: I think it really is not our job to criticise Israel/the jewish people. There are about 200 other countries that are capable of voicing their opinions. I seriously doubt Hamas left Israel much of a choice, though. They are still keeping and mistreating hostages. What is Israel supposed to do? Passively standing by and watching their hostages being impregnated?
It’s one thing to refrain from commenting but supporting Israel makes it clear that Germany learned nothing.
None of the hostages were raped or are being raped. This is total Birth of a Nation, “They’re coming for our white women”_ bullshit.
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As a German, I feel like, we should be capable of seeing 10th of thousands of people die, including reporters, aid workers and literal children, and fathom that this… is bad.
What is Israel supposed to do? Passively standing by and watching their hostages being impregnated?
No, obviously not.
Killing international aid workers, Palestinian men, women, and children indiscriminately doesn’t seem like a viable solution either and calling everyone who criticizes your military policy as “anti-Semitic” is not what you should do either.
what about the genocide claim buddy bud
Whatabout the hair in your butt?
my butt hair is more on topic that your comment my guy
don’t forget to wear that keffiyeh!
What the fuck is a “keffiyeh”?
But it’s not so simple and the media reporting is sometimes super biased and misrepresenting things. For example the aid workers that got killed. Before that happened the convoi got hijacked by Hamas fighters that actually started firing first. Somehow all the reports leave out that quite important detail.
But it’s not so simple and the media reporting is sometimes super biased and misrepresenting things.
Is the best military policy at that point to just wipe out the entire lot of them? Including the aid workers?
Also, I noticed you haven’t even acknowledged anything about the innocent men, women, and children that have been brutally killed on camera time and time again, for all the world to see, broadcast live, in some instances. Children are Hamas fighters now.
But who gives a shit, amirite? Every critical Goyim opinion is just Jew-hate now according to the Israeli government. They can do no wrong. Israel Uber Alles is the only opinion that is not “Anti-Semitic”.
No of course it is not the best policy, that’s not what I said. However it changes the story quite substantially in that a big share of the blame should be attributed also to Hamas. And leaving that part out is super dishonest.
I do acknowledge also the civilian casualties and it’s a tragedy of course. I was just pointing out one example of bad reporting and I’m sure if you look closely there are many more cases where civilians died mainly because Hamas was hiding among them. So if you mention the deaths I feel you can’t leave out that part. But mostly what I’m trying to say is it’s not black & white and there simply are no good options for Israel: either give in to Hamas human shield tactics (for which Hamas basically takes all of Gaza hostage) or accept civilian deaths. It’s a bad position and I don’t know the answer, but I can understand that letting Hamas get away with everything is also not an option.
ALL OF THE ABRAHAMIC RELIGIONS AND THEIR MILITARY AND POLITICAL PROXY MOVEMENTS (THEIR PARTIES OF GOD) ARE ANTITHETICAL TO FREE AND OPEN SOCIETIES.
I’ve sufficiently “cleared my throat” now.
In my opinion, Hezbollah and Hamas are proxies for the Shiah Iranians to destabilize the normalization of Israeli relations with their Sunni neighbors. The zionists also benefit from the sundering of any lasting political stability.
The Hamas, the right-wing zionist movement, and the Netanyahu administration historically and currently enable each others barbarity. The Israeli government in this latest conflict has an order of magnitude (at least) of innocent blood on its hands, and my government (and others) enables that.
The CIA calls it “blowback”.
Hamas hiding amongst civilians doesn’t account for the slaughter I’ve seen, again, sometimes on live broadcast. There were four boys who were vaporized by the Israelis just recently. I saw zero Hamas hiding amongst them. I haven’t seen any videos of them with hostages, Kalashnikovs, or RPGs. But clearly they must have been Hamas fighters. Israel never gets it wrong!
Willfully or unintentionally, the objective is clear: in public discourse, use active agents and useful idiots to obfuscate. The Israeli government and its military cannot be seen as solely culpable for any situation even with evidence in individual cases pointing to the contrary. Any critique of Israel needs a “Whatabout _____________?”
A pox on both their houses certainly, but this time, Bibi’s first.
That looks like a really objective website there
Hamas supporters so deranged that they’re trying to use the past to guilt today’s Germans.
When you say Hamas supporter, do you mean netanyahu?
Glad to see Germany addressing the conflict rationally, unlike half of Lemmy which just screams “genocide!” in every thread.
Still waiting to hear an explanation for why there are no Jews in Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Yemen, and Egypt, when there were historical populations in those countries (hint: it’s the G word)
You mean that G word that happened right after Israel came into existence and proceeded to demonstrate its intent to conquer by immediately disregarding its own borders with Palestine?
Genocide ain’t it no matter who’s doing it and for what reason, but it’s real fuckin’ convenient to just ignore a major instigating factor that just happens to be the country you’re trying to apologism for.
You mean after the Arab neighbours started a G on the jews as soon as the Brits left?
Sure the jews aren’t much better but it’s clear they’d be G’d themselves if it wasn’t for their weapons
Jewish people from all over the world (not only parts of Europe invaded by Nazi Germany) were brought there to displace the Arab population that was forced to flee after a campaign of terrorist attacks.
The different religions didn’t have much beef with each other until that ethnic cleansing by religious fanatics who actually think that specific strip of desert land was gifted to them by god.
The only people who committed Jewish genocide were the Nazis. That’s why if at all a Jewish state should have been carved out from German territory and not have Arabs pay with their homeland.
Jews went there on their own. In no small part from predominantly muslim countries where they faced systemic discrimination and, often, persecution.
Those from the Ottoman empire who didn’t were largely genocided by their muslim neighbours to ‘punish’ them for the creation of Israel, which should give you clue that your idea that “different religions didn’t have much beef” is complete bs.
Not to say the zionist jews aren’t among the worst people as well, of course
Jews went there on their own.
To displace the native population. That’s a war crime.
In no small part from predominantly muslim countries where they faced systemic discrimination and, often, persecution.
Not genocide, though. Unlike what’s happening to Palestinians now which is another coordinated effort to get rid of them. The civilians are systematically attacked and pushed towards Egypt for that reason.
‘punish’ them for the creation of Israel, which should give you clue that your idea that “different religions didn’t have much beef” is complete bs.
When I write that “different religions didn’t have much beef” before the creation of Israel by religious fanatics, any action that happens afterwards is no counter argument to that.
Yeah, I think this idea comes from not really knowing much history then.
As long as there are different religions, there’s been religious beef.
Jews living as minorities in predominantly islamic countries have experienced this by various degrees. Islamic law demands that they always be treated as second class citizens and, to no surprise, they have. And in certain periods in certain places, this was spiced up with some forced conversion or genocide.
Read up on this for a nice example. It’s like claiming black African slaves had a nice life in the US until some troublemakers started demanding equal rights.
The mass migration towards Palestine and zionist efforts to create a majority jewish state there aren’t a pinnacle of humanity, but it’s important to know where it comes from
As an atheist I’m far from being an Islam defender but a special tax for “book religions” other than Islam and bans on certain jobs isn’t genocide and really not an excuse to displace or even murder a Muslim population who wasn’t even the ruling class that made those laws in the first place.
Islam isn’t treating Judaism and Christianity the way it would treat polytheists like Hindus. Now that’s a whole other can of worms but Palestinian genocide is inexcusable no matter how much anyone tries to justify it belittle it.
Too rational for Lemmy.
Every Jew in modern day Germany…
They are already. Antisemitic violence has been on the rise here since October 7. Antisemites see Israel do a thing and think “I know, let’s hurt some Jews”
I think the bigger problem is Germany arresting Jews for antisemitism.
?
Protesting Israel is considered antisemitism in Germany even if you’re Jewish. Real antisemitism is also on the rise but all pro-Palestinian protests are also lumped in. Anti-Zionist jews (Jewish Voice for Peace, etc) always on the forefront of these marches.
I as a german asked an expert on that topic. Chatgpt. According to chatGPT there is no genocide if you don’t kill them with the intention to wipe them from the planet. So if for example you drop accidentally poison into their water because you mixed the Botox and sugar bottle in the water station then even if they all die it is not a genocide.
And since chatgpt is infallable this is the only truth.
Good thing then that Israeli politicians haven’t been on record saying that Gaza needs to be “wiped from the face of the Earth”!
I know your being sarcastic but I just want to point out that this is incorrect
here is no genocide if you don’t kill them with the intention to wipe them from the planet
If you plan to cull a demographic by only 10% its still genocide according to the UN. This is the definition that South Africa’s case at the ICJ will be ruled under. Under this definition all ethnic cleansing requires genocide.
To meet the legal definition of genocide, you also have to have the intent to destroy a particular group of people. So, legally speaking, your example isn’t genocide according to any source.
I don’t know the motives behind the Israel/Palestine conflict or how it started, but if it doesn’t involve an intent to destroy Palestinians specifically, I guess I could see how GPT’s take is valid. Like, the war in Ukraine is egregious too, but that by itself doesn’t make it a genocide.
How it started: the Ottomans sided with the Nazis, so when they lost, the Ottomans also lost their land and the Allies got it, following the usual war rule where the winner wins the land. Dividing up the land is where the British Mandate for Palestine came from, under which we gave 2/3 of the land to the Arabs (Transjordan) and 1/3 of the land to Israel. But the Arabs refused to accept this and started the first of a series of wars against Israel. The Arabs, now also partially known as Palestinians, have continually refused to accept any peace deal, starting wars whenever possible and so far losing every one of them. Israel has repeatedly accepted peace deals, even at the cost of land, but it only works if both sides agree, which they don’t: the only deal the Arabs want is all the land and no Israel, which also means no Jews (proof: look at the Jewish communities within existing Arab states (TLDR: non-existent or shrinking)), which means the Arabs are hellbent on a genocide of all the Jews, and are determined to achieve that or die trying.
Deliberate displacement of particular ethnic or religious groups is also recognized as genocide, in particular because it’s often a pretext. ChatGPT is wrong, and needs to read the UN definition.
Upvoted but I wish you would have run your post through ChatGPT as well my friend. That was hard to read.
Comma rule in German is so fucked that normal humans just give up and never use any.
I could use german grammar to set the commas, but then I would have probably 10 to many for English grammar. So I tend to use less in English.
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As a native English speaker, I barely understand comma rules either. The only person I know that I would expect to always get commas right has a Master’s degree in English. The extremely oversimplified rule I was taught as a young child was to add a comma anywhere you would naturally pause while speaking. Doesn’t always work, but it works well enough.
None of those sentences needed commas, they’re just not constructed very clearly.
I’ve counted 6 missing commas.
You overuse commas.
No, he doesn’t.
Read some Cormac McCarthy some time.
I, as a German, asked an expert on that topic: ChatGPT. According to ChatGPT, there is no genocide if you don’t kill them with the intention to wipe them from the planet. So, if for example you accidentally drop poison into their water because you mixed the botox and sugar bottle at the water station, then even if they all die it is not a genocide.
And since ChatGPT is infallible, this is the only truth.
—
Six commas, colon, capitalization, word order, word choice, “infallible”. Infallible like my editing 🤓 & dunt u disagreeme
PS: I speak zero languages (rounded), good job all who learn English and attempt to use it
Okay, yes, those are all valid places to put commas, good job – except for the one after “So”, which actually decreases the legibility. It would be better to surround “for example” with commas.
However, none of them are grammatically necessary. The original comment is totally fine and can be parsed unambiguously as-is. I would support the colon insertion above any of your commas.
Good point!
Interesting, anywhere I can read about grammatically necessary vs. recommended yet unnecessary commas? (Perhaps on the first search result for that question heh)
This is a decent article, at least for the most part: I actually don’t like their examples for the “Preposition of Time” stuff at all, the versions with commas are just bad writing.
But basically it just comes down to whether the sentence/clause can be parsed unambiguously without the commas. There is no syntactical difference between “I as a German asked…” and “I, as a German, asked…”. It’s entirely a style choice.
Yeah, genocide often requires intent. So I guess this could be more of a massacre than a genocide.
But there’s quite a few different definitions, some are more lax.
Except for all the politicians, from shutzstaffel commanders to the (Hitler apologist) PM’s PR guy saying exactly this, using words like cexterminate’ ‘wipe from the earth’ ‘every last one’ and many individual storm troopers posting on their social media (in videos while doing war crimes), or even their ‘civilians’ frequently saying it
Edit: nevermind. It wasnt a press guy; their pm.said it himself. Of course it did.
I really doubt their aim with this thing is to destroy all the Palestinians, but if you can provide those quotes that show that that’s their stated aim then I’d definitely consider this a genocide.
How many do you need? So we don’t have any more goalpost shifting?
I was thinking the ones in the above reply but it doesn’t have to be very many at all if it’s the top people saying it. PM, DM, generals (that sort of people) saying their goals are extermination of Palestinians seems like it’d make the case pretty clear.
I’m sorry if you see asking for sources as goalpost shifting but my goalpost was that there should be intent shown (because that’s a common genocide definition I think). It hasn’t changed. Asking for source is just basic thing on online discussions. It’s not a personal thing against you.
How many. Give me a number. IMO case is already so obvious you need special glasses to look directly at it and keep your eyes. So tell me how many high level and how many low level (probably nsfl) sources would work.
If Theres a ‘might convince me’ range and a ‘this is so fucking obvious how could I have missed this?’ Range, feel free to include that.
Uhh, let’s say five? Is that alright?
I’m sorry I didn’t first see that you had edited the comment. I don’t know what would be a solid number for “this is obvious”. I guess it would depend on what is said by who. But I guess if you want some sort of hard number then let’s go with five top level comments or something? Would that work?
Teeeeensy nitpick: there are two definitions of genocide that have ever mattered. Two. Not many. Two.
Lemkins original, much much broader, definition, And the one you’re familiar with, adopted by the UN because like everyone on the permanent security council thing had an interest in the definition being a little more narrow. Under which the way the Palestinian people are being exterminated absolutely still counts.
Interestingly, by lemkin’s broader definition, making the shutzstaffel stop killing Palestinians might constitute a genocide of the kapostanis; it would be destroying every trace of their culture, and the means of its reproduction.
I didn’t say there were plenty “that have ever mattered” so it doesn’t seem like a nitpick towards me.
I’m sure your high school had its own? Doesn’t count.
There are plenty of abbreviations. But those aren’t separate content; just condensed versions.
There are two.
Well that’s certainly a view.
If Theres ever a genocide against a group I know includes you,I’m going to laugh at it so hard.
Which is probably going to get me kicked out of a lot of ‘stop the genocide’ stuff.
If Theres ever a genocide against a group I know includes you,I’m going to laugh at it so hard.
Weird.
Except that basically all Israeli politicians have made statements saying they have genocidal intentions.
All?
The charge document includes quotes of expression of genocidal intent by the following state officials:
- Prime Minister of Israel
- President of Israel
- Israeli Minister of Defence
- Israeli Minister for National Security
- Israeli Minister of Energy and Infrastructure
- Israeli Minister of Finance
- Israeli Minister of Heritage
- Israeli Minister of Agriculture
- Deputy Speaker of the Knesset and Member of the Foreign Affairs and Security
Committee - Israeli Army Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (‘COGAT’)
- Israeli Army Reservist Major General, former Head of the Israeli National Security
Council, and adviser to the Defence Minister
You can read the actual quotes in the application document in chapter D.
great meme OP or should i say groß meme!
Everyone seems to be forgetting who started this in the first place.
Israel is sure as hell gonna finish it
Everyone seems to be forgetting who started this in the first place.
Israel?
try again
Genocide, as in the legal definition, requires intent. As far as I see it Germany is not even trying to deny anything Israel did or does, or argue evidence in any other way, all the government is basically doing is saying “Your honour, our client can’t have intent because they’re demonstrably criminally insane, we know because we caused that insanity”. Not in that many words, but to that effect.
And a sane person/nation would willingly engage in genocide? Insanity doesn’t negate intent, only ones ability to distinguish reality or prevent themselves from carrying out actions they know to be immoral. Inb4 India, China, the USA, and Russia of course but you take my point?
With individuals, criminal insanity means that you can’t be held accountable on account of not being able to tell good from wrong: Lacking that ability, you cannot have an intent to do wrong. It’s also not a get out of jail free card, it’s quite often a get locked into a closed institution for an indeterminate amount of time card, until the doctors decide that you’re not a danger to yourself or society. Being judged criminally insane can turn a five-year sentence into de facto life.
And it’s not like I personally agree that the notion is really applicable to a people, or that it should be considered when it comes to the genocide convention, but damn someone has to be their defence lawyer – they certainly aren’t capable of defending themselves, pretty much everything they say just makes people more mad, justifiably so. Given Germany’s history don’t blame us for taking on that role.
it’s not genocide, it’s war crimes: Germany, 2024
In hindsight this should have been posted in the political meme section not here.
My apologies, I’m new to lemmy. Thank you for your patience yall, I’ll do better.
(Preface: I am team genocide. I also live in Germany. Germany’s politics are a disgrace, but I digress.)
What annoys me about this is that this discussion gets so much media attention and focus, while it doesn’t matter in this very moment. I understand that there are implications if it will be defined as a genocide. But right now people are being killed every day en masse and they frankly give a crap about whether they died in a mass murder or terrorist attack or a genocide.
It reminds me of the early days of the Ukraine war when everyone was so obsessed with comparing Putin to Hitler (Putler is still a popular term) and the discussion was high on whether Putins actions amount to fascism or not, with a lot of internet laymen but also experts on that subject chiming in. When I asked a half Russian, half Ukrainian what their opinion was, their reply was something like “who the fuck cares? Call it a chicken pea pie, nobody cares, people are being killed, I don’t give a crap. Somewhen in the future people will be looking back and asking the same question, but it doesn’t matter right now.” And it stuck with me.
If I understand correctly, the ICJ will rule again on the case in a couple of years (?), which obviously isn’t relevant right now. It seems like the ruling would have an aftermath in retrospect but even if they ruled it were a genocide today, nothing much would change directly - but please correct me if I am wrong here.
But what definitely doesn’t matter is what we think. What matters is what is happening. And it doesn’t need a name to be evil and detrimental.
”i am team genocide"
-volvoxvsmarla
I dunno, can we trust them? Agree tho; people are dying and it needs to stop no matter what we call it, even if there were no larger implications; its fucking pointless and needs to stop.
I hope I won’t be remembered for this quote. I’ll choose my phrasing better in the future.
"I (…) won’t be (…) better in the future. "
-volvoxvsmarla
I need to stop digging, my grave is already big enough to fit a walrus
Lol please don’t; it was hilarious to read.
Germany has supplied 30% of Israel s weapons, and has continued to do so during this ongoing genocide. If Germany or the US were to acknowledge the ongoing genocide, they’d have to stop supplying those arms immediately, hence stopping the annihilation of Gaza. So it’s of immense importance to keep repeating what most of the world already acknowledges: this is a genocide, and those arming the perpetrators are complicit in their crimes. History will not judge Germany kindly, but I guess that’s not exactly a new thing for a veteran perpetrator of genocide.
Ok, this sounds valid. But what would oblige them to stop them from delivering weapons if the ICJ rules it is a genocide? Is there any legal obligation, can they denounce the ruling?
If you mean acknowledge in a sense of civilian/political acknowledgement, then my issue with it is that it shouldn’t be necessary to be this anal about some definition. It’s splitting hairs on cut off heads. Supporting mass murder is wrong in the context of genocide as well as outside of it. It shouldn’t be necessary to convince the governments that it is a genocide to convince them to stop supplying weapons.
The US and Germany are both signatories of the UN arms trade treaty . This is article 6 (3):
“A State Party shall not authorize any transfer of conventional arms covered under Article 2 (1) or of items covered under Article 3 or Article 4, if it has knowledge at the time of authorization that the arms or items would be used in the commission of genocide, crimes against humanity, grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, attacks directed against civilian objects or civilians protected as such, or other war crimes as defined by international agreements to which it is a Party”
Mass murder is the name of the game in war. So arming other militaries is always in support of mass murder. But in the eyes of international law some mass murder is acceptable as part of war. Genocide and the other crimes recounted above however, have been deemed to cross the threshold of acceptability in international law, and therefore are meant to stop the transfer of arms immediately. If the US and Germany were to acknowledge that these crimes are being perpetrated by Israel, they’d have to stop transferring arms. Mass murder in itself is admittedly wrong, but that alone is not sufficient to trigger a halt to arms exports. Therefore, it is of great importance to keep repeating: this is a genocide, and those arming the perpetrators are complicit in their crimes.
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Can you blame them? This is what happens when you use the metric system
Imperial coping™
