Khalil al-Hayya, a deputy to Hamas Gaza leader Yahya Sinwar says the group's aim is not to run Gaza but to shake the Middle East and put Palestinian issue back in focus; Tells New York Times expected Arab world to join fight
Hamas is the name of the government of Palestine in the Gaza Strip. There is no higher authority in the country than Hamas. Just as the Putin administration runs the Russian government, Hamas runs the Palestine government in Gaza.
I would specifically ask people not to do that, including with Israel. More than any other country I feel that Israel is treated as monolithic… perhaps China too, at least in American media.
Right…but most governments commit acts not endorsed by their civilian population.
If it’s your opinion that the murder of civilians is a legitimate response to government actions, then that implies you believe that 9/11 was not only a legitimate response, but a deserved one.
The vast majority of people who support Palestine are not huge fans of Hamas. People just recognize that the Israeli state response has been a giant crime against humanity. They also recognize the political status quo that fueled the attack to begin with.
When there are two belligerent parties engaged in an asymmetrical feud, the onus to progress past the violent status quo belongs to the only party that has the ability to enact that progress.
Israel has steadily refused to negotiate any diplomatic change to the status quo. When all other forms of discourse are exhausted, violence will inevitably rear its ugly head.
Might want to keep reading past the first few lines there. Israel bombed the shit out of Gaza after that and kidnapped all the moderate, pro Israel members of the Hamas government. Surprise! The people that replaced them were not moderate. There have been no elections since.
Also, Hamas was behind by ten points in polls right before the election, then won by ten points. But yeah, by all means, keep bombing them babies, they deserve it!
After the kidnap of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit on 25 June 2006, Israel launched a series of raids into Gaza and the West Bank. Israel destroyed civilian infrastructure and arrested dozens of Hamas supporters, including elected cabinet ministers and members of the PLC. On 28 June overnight, the army invaded Gaza and performed airstrikes, bombing infrastructure such as bridges and an electricity station. On 29 June, the IDF detained from the West Bank 8 ministers and 26 PLC members in addition to many other political leaders.[19][41] By August 2006, Israel had arrested 49 senior Hamas officials, all from the West Bank, including 33 parliamentarians, “because technically they were members of a terrorist organisation although they may not be involved in terrorist acts themselves”. Most of the Hamas detainees were moderate members from the West Bank who had been calling on the Gaza leadership to recognise Israel and make the party more acceptable to the international community. Hamas has accused Israel of trying to destroy the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority.[42]
You understand a large portion of the population wasn’t born at the time of that election, right?
Considering that we’re talking about 2006… only 17 years ago… Only people we consider children would not have been born yet (and generally aren’t allowed to vote). So this is moot point.
You understand that election was forced by the US, right?
Evidence please. You’ve just made a claim that it not immediately supported by anything. US has had involvement with Israel… Not Palestine. The 2006 elections were entirely Palestinian controlled as far as I can see.
You understand the US failed to coup Hamas and solidified their power, right?
Once again. We tend to back Israel… Not Palestine. Which would have put us attempting to help Israel AGAINST Hamas…
You think little babies should be blown to bits over an election 17 years ago right?
Oh shit… you can do math! If you read the article that this Lemmy thread is about… you’d see that THEY CHOSE THIS. Blame Hamas. Not US or Israel. they made this choice knowing what would happen. You would think that if they’re so against Hamas, they would have kicked Hamas out long ago.
Maybe 20% of the current population voted for Hamas 17 years ago. Democratic legitimacy has to have some kind of shelf life, no?
Are they still collectively responsible when it’s 10%? Are 2.4 million people responsible when there’s just one remaining person alive who voted for them?
The apologists here keep trying to act like Hamas isn’t literally the government of Palestine in Gaza. It’s as crazy as saying Russia did not invade Ukraine, only the Putin administration invaded Ukraine.
You know Putin came to power through extremely questionable circumstances in 2001 and the “re-elections” have only gotten worse over the last 22 years, ya? But sure, blame civilians because the government pretends to be democratic.
It would not be right to confine and then bomb Russians either.
I get that it’s kind of a third party in the state at this point… But Hamas clearly stems from Palestine no matter what way you look at it. And Palestine still claims control over Gaza… So there’s no functional way to argue anything otherwise without outright lying. It’s of Palestinian origin… was put in place by Palestine… The fact that it might have shifted away from strictly Fatah-based Palestinian control doesn’t change anything. The worst part is… it seems that the Hamas “takeover” was a proper election. So it’s solely on Palestines hands that Hamas exists as far as I can tell.
What I hope people don’t do is assume that I’m condone all of Israel’s actions… since you know… I haven’t brought that up at all. I’m willing to bet all the downvotes are literally those people.
The Hamas party ran on a moderate platform, Israel came in and murdered almost all of the elected leaders six months after they took office. The people who replaced them were not elected and did not have moderate values. They also decided not to have elections anymore. Half of the people who were alive for that election are dead. I don’t feel comfortable with this whole “Well, they’ve made their bed and now they can sleep in it while Israel indiscriminately bombs it” mentality.
How often does a democracy have elections? Pretty sure it’s more than once a generation. It helps your agenda to pretend Hamas and Palestine are synonyms, but that doesn’t make it true.
How often does Russia have legitimate elections? Never. The Putin administration is still the government of Russia, just as Hamas is the government of Palestine in Gaza.
So then your stance is in direct opposition to history that Hamas is completely unrelated to Palestine? Do you know the history of Hamas? Which government did it form under? Which people elected it in 2006?
What happens after that election doesn’t make much of a difference to me. Those very same people could still be happy with Hamas (I don’t see a civil war kicking them out…)
Either Hamas is unpopular or it’s popular. Either way you’ve now argued for both. And yet you tell me I’m falling for propaganda. Your own talking parts aren’t even consistent.
A: time exists. As the occupation as become more brutal and unjust, the more a reactionary militant force is going to gain popularity. I fucking hate the cops, but I’m going to call them in extreme distress for example.
B: even if they were unpopular, you have to be a special level of hated before you’re expelled and ‘civil warred’
They’ll downvote you, spout off some nonsense about Israel committing genocide, because any war is apparently genocide now, and then dance away without providing any concrete solution that doesn’t involve Israel getting wiped off the map.
Oh yeah, bombing hospitals/schools/refugee corridors is definitely typical of war, and can’t be considered genocide at all. Just look away from all the dead children, it’s just the cost of doing business.
Hamas explicitly uses those places to launch attacks because they don’t give a fuck about Palestinians civilians and want Israel to bomb them so they look bad. The alternative is to let them launch rockets against Israel with impunity, which has worked so well for the past 20 years, hasn’t it?
Hamas explicitly uses those places to launch attacks because they don’t give a fuck about Palestinians civilians and want Israel to bomb them so they look bad.
Did you ever consider not playing into their hands? Pretty god-damned foolish to let your enemy bait you into becoming an international pariah.
You mean the people that complain about minor details like, I don’t know… ethnic cleansing, genocide, tens of thousands of civilian deaths, settler terrorism, white phosphorus, civilian infrastructure being leveled, journalists murdered.
Yeah, they’re the only militant force with any level of power seen as potential liberators from a violent oppressive force that has only served to fuck them over.
Hamas exists because of Israel and Israel’s actions, not because Palestinians are some barbaric angry subhumans. They have never even been that popular.
So when they win an election for Gaza under Palestine authority… in 2006… and it’s recorded history… They’re not popular? I would saying winning control of a territory through normal political actions… That’s probably pretty popular and you’re attempting to retcon actual history.
They were at 34% support in the pols the day before the election, then won with 44%. Suspect? Also the Israeli government came in and murdered almost the entire government soon after the election, most of whom were pro Israel. Their replacements were not pro Israel. They stopped holding elections after that. (iTs ReCOrdEd hIsToRee!)
LMAO You’re the type of person that states that Trump shouldn’t have won 2016 because they didn’t win the popular vote… Then someone compare that to this… forgetting that he was ~1% less “popular” than Clinton. Someone who can get over 60 million votes is pretty “popular”.
This is absolutely hilarious. I get to see someone truly warp their mind to justify winning with fewer votes than your opponent. And the best part is you’re not even talking about the electoral college, just simply “yes it’s less votes but he’s still popular!”
As far as more recent sources… If they’re that disapproved of… and there’s no mechanism to remove them because they stopped holding elections for 17 years. Why not remove them from government? How come Fatah-based Palestinian government couldn’t control rather than Hamas? Further the first link shows both west bank and Gaza… West bank is historically “Fatah”. So it doesn’t make sense to lump them together if you’re talking about Gaza Palastinians feelings about Hamas.
Your video also makes a good point against your statement… If Hamas is so unpopular… Why are they still in power on the strip after 17 years?
The argument that the entire population of Gaza can be held responsible for Hamas’s actions is quickly discredited when one looks at the facts. Arab Barometer, a research network where we serve as co-principal investigators, conducted a survey in Gaza and the West Bank days before the Israel-Hamas war broke out. The findings, published here for the first time, reveal that rather than supporting Hamas, the vast majority of Gazans have been frustrated with the armed group’s ineffective governance as they endure extreme economic hardship. Most Gazans do not align themselves with Hamas’s ideology, either. Unlike Hamas, whose goal is to destroy the Israeli state, the majority of survey respondents favored a two-state solution with an independent Palestine and Israel existing side by side.
Right… So 17 years later… they’re so dissatisfied… and nothing changed? That’s not how governments stay in power… Something is wrong with the supposition as the results don’t make sense.
doesn’t mean all gazans are part of them or approve of what they’re doing.
I’m trying to find where I said that everyone approves… and I’m not seeing it. So I’m not sure what this point is supposed to mean. Sufficient people care about Hamas… Otherwise they would not be in power. They did originate their power from the Palestinian government. This is just simple fact. If EVERYONE hates Hamas as much as you claim they do… Why are they still there? How come that power is so fractured and different than the rest of Palestine(eg West Bank)?
If they’re so disliked… This would not be how it is. My point is that clearly they’re not as disliked as you claim. Otherwise we wouldn’t be here.
You seemed to be claiming from your first comment that Palestinian people deserved what was happening to them. I’m saying that some at least (probably most) don’t support Hamas, so it’s wrong to say they deserve what’s going on.
Anyone have a surprised face I can borrow? I seem to have lost mine.
Here you are:
I’ve been refreshing every few minutes waiting for the Palestinian apologists to show up… I really just want to see how they reconcile this one.
Palestine != Hamas
Hamas is the name of the government of Palestine in the Gaza Strip. There is no higher authority in the country than Hamas. Just as the Putin administration runs the Russian government, Hamas runs the Palestine government in Gaza.
So would you ask people to condemn the civilians of a country based solely on the decisions of their leadership?
Regimes change all the time, what does vilification of non-combatants get you?
I would specifically ask people not to do that, including with Israel. More than any other country I feel that Israel is treated as monolithic… perhaps China too, at least in American media.
Right…but most governments commit acts not endorsed by their civilian population.
If it’s your opinion that the murder of civilians is a legitimate response to government actions, then that implies you believe that 9/11 was not only a legitimate response, but a deserved one.
The vast majority of people who support Palestine are not huge fans of Hamas. People just recognize that the Israeli state response has been a giant crime against humanity. They also recognize the political status quo that fueled the attack to begin with.
When there are two belligerent parties engaged in an asymmetrical feud, the onus to progress past the violent status quo belongs to the only party that has the ability to enact that progress.
Israel has steadily refused to negotiate any diplomatic change to the status quo. When all other forms of discourse are exhausted, violence will inevitably rear its ugly head.
so you’d say that as an American I’d agree with and embody everything this idiot government does?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governance_of_the_Gaza_Strip
I’m sorry what?
Might want to keep reading past the first few lines there. Israel bombed the shit out of Gaza after that and kidnapped all the moderate, pro Israel members of the Hamas government. Surprise! The people that replaced them were not moderate. There have been no elections since.
Also, Hamas was behind by ten points in polls right before the election, then won by ten points. But yeah, by all means, keep bombing them babies, they deserve it!
If the civilian population was responsible for government actions, the United States should have been nuked decades ago.
You understand what elections are right?
You understand a large portion of the population wasn’t born at the time of that election, right?
You understand that election was forced by the US, right?
You understand the US failed to coup Hamas and solidified their power, right?
You think little babies should be blown to bits over an election 17 years ago right?
Considering that we’re talking about 2006… only 17 years ago… Only people we consider children would not have been born yet (and generally aren’t allowed to vote). So this is moot point.
Evidence please. You’ve just made a claim that it not immediately supported by anything. US has had involvement with Israel… Not Palestine. The 2006 elections were entirely Palestinian controlled as far as I can see.
Once again. We tend to back Israel… Not Palestine. Which would have put us attempting to help Israel AGAINST Hamas…
Oh shit… you can do math! If you read the article that this Lemmy thread is about… you’d see that THEY CHOSE THIS. Blame Hamas. Not US or Israel. they made this choice knowing what would happen. You would think that if they’re so against Hamas, they would have kicked Hamas out long ago.
~50% of Gaza is under 18.
Think it through bud, you can do it.
(also I love how if I don’t cite sources on everything I’m automatically wrong because it doesn’t confirm to the propoganda you’ve been fed lmao)
Maybe 20% of the current population voted for Hamas 17 years ago. Democratic legitimacy has to have some kind of shelf life, no?
Are they still collectively responsible when it’s 10%? Are 2.4 million people responsible when there’s just one remaining person alive who voted for them?
The apologists here keep trying to act like Hamas isn’t literally the government of Palestine in Gaza. It’s as crazy as saying Russia did not invade Ukraine, only the Putin administration invaded Ukraine.
You know Putin came to power through extremely questionable circumstances in 2001 and the “re-elections” have only gotten worse over the last 22 years, ya? But sure, blame civilians because the government pretends to be democratic.
It would not be right to confine and then bomb Russians either.
I get that it’s kind of a third party in the state at this point… But Hamas clearly stems from Palestine no matter what way you look at it. And Palestine still claims control over Gaza… So there’s no functional way to argue anything otherwise without outright lying. It’s of Palestinian origin… was put in place by Palestine… The fact that it might have shifted away from strictly Fatah-based Palestinian control doesn’t change anything. The worst part is… it seems that the Hamas “takeover” was a proper election. So it’s solely on Palestines hands that Hamas exists as far as I can tell.
What I hope people don’t do is assume that I’m condone all of Israel’s actions… since you know… I haven’t brought that up at all. I’m willing to bet all the downvotes are literally those people.
The Hamas party ran on a moderate platform, Israel came in and murdered almost all of the elected leaders six months after they took office. The people who replaced them were not elected and did not have moderate values. They also decided not to have elections anymore. Half of the people who were alive for that election are dead. I don’t feel comfortable with this whole “Well, they’ve made their bed and now they can sleep in it while Israel indiscriminately bombs it” mentality.
How often does a democracy have elections? Pretty sure it’s more than once a generation. It helps your agenda to pretend Hamas and Palestine are synonyms, but that doesn’t make it true.
How often does Russia have legitimate elections? Never. The Putin administration is still the government of Russia, just as Hamas is the government of Palestine in Gaza.
So then your stance is in direct opposition to history that Hamas is completely unrelated to Palestine? Do you know the history of Hamas? Which government did it form under? Which people elected it in 2006?
What happens after that election doesn’t make much of a difference to me. Those very same people could still be happy with Hamas (I don’t see a civil war kicking them out…)
They recognize their actual enemy. Why would they kick out the people attempting to stick up for them?
So one minute…
source:https://lemmings.world/comment/3456084
then the next minute…
source:https://lemmings.world/comment/3458582
Either Hamas is unpopular or it’s popular. Either way you’ve now argued for both. And yet you tell me I’m falling for propaganda. Your own talking parts aren’t even consistent.
A: time exists. As the occupation as become more brutal and unjust, the more a reactionary militant force is going to gain popularity. I fucking hate the cops, but I’m going to call them in extreme distress for example.
B: even if they were unpopular, you have to be a special level of hated before you’re expelled and ‘civil warred’
Stop having a binary child brain please.
Well no… Most of the people that voted for it are dead… Median age in Palestine is 18 or 19
Lots of Hamas apologists around here unfortunately though.
This is a statement from Hamas, not the Palestinian people.
They’ll downvote you, spout off some nonsense about Israel committing genocide, because any war is apparently genocide now, and then dance away without providing any concrete solution that doesn’t involve Israel getting wiped off the map.
Oh yeah, bombing hospitals/schools/refugee corridors is definitely typical of war, and can’t be considered genocide at all. Just look away from all the dead children, it’s just the cost of doing business.
Hamas explicitly uses those places to launch attacks because they don’t give a fuck about Palestinians civilians and want Israel to bomb them so they look bad. The alternative is to let them launch rockets against Israel with impunity, which has worked so well for the past 20 years, hasn’t it?
Is that a justification for genocide?
Did you ever consider not playing into their hands? Pretty god-damned foolish to let your enemy bait you into becoming an international pariah.
You mean the people that complain about minor details like, I don’t know… ethnic cleansing, genocide, tens of thousands of civilian deaths, settler terrorism, white phosphorus, civilian infrastructure being leveled, journalists murdered.
Just little things that get us all riled up.
You realize that Hamas’ official stance is death to all Christians right? Literally meeting everything you believe Israel to want.
Yeah, they’re the only militant force with any level of power seen as potential liberators from a violent oppressive force that has only served to fuck them over.
Hamas exists because of Israel and Israel’s actions, not because Palestinians are some barbaric angry subhumans. They have never even been that popular.
So when they win an election for Gaza under Palestine authority… in 2006… and it’s recorded history… They’re not popular? I would saying winning control of a territory through normal political actions… That’s probably pretty popular and you’re attempting to retcon actual history.
Yes.
Moderate candidates split the vote, and exit polls at the time showed like 80% of people wanted to work toward peace.
They also ran on being anti corruption and pious, and the other candidates absolutely had corruption issues.
They were at 34% support in the pols the day before the election, then won with 44%. Suspect? Also the Israeli government came in and murdered almost the entire government soon after the election, most of whom were pro Israel. Their replacements were not pro Israel. They stopped holding elections after that. (iTs ReCOrdEd hIsToRee!)
Oh cool! So then you have a source for your claim?
Also, if you’re American, you should understand how deeply unpopular candidates can win elections. Hell, plenty don’t even need a popular vote!
LMAO You’re the type of person that states that Trump shouldn’t have won 2016 because they didn’t win the popular vote… Then someone compare that to this… forgetting that he was ~1% less “popular” than Clinton. Someone who can get over 60 million votes is pretty “popular”.
He still got less votes
This is absolutely hilarious. I get to see someone truly warp their mind to justify winning with fewer votes than your opponent. And the best part is you’re not even talking about the electoral college, just simply “yes it’s less votes but he’s still popular!”
Hamas’ approval rating wasn’t even that high in Palistine before the current events. https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas
https://www.neareastconsulting.com/plc2006/blmain.html
https://youtu.be/9X7SMGGMZUI
Your own source…
https://www.neareastconsulting.com/plc2006/official/c002.html
Seems pretty high to me…
As far as more recent sources… If they’re that disapproved of… and there’s no mechanism to remove them because they stopped holding elections for 17 years. Why not remove them from government? How come Fatah-based Palestinian government couldn’t control rather than Hamas? Further the first link shows both west bank and Gaza… West bank is historically “Fatah”. So it doesn’t make sense to lump them together if you’re talking about Gaza Palastinians feelings about Hamas.
Your video also makes a good point against your statement… If Hamas is so unpopular… Why are they still in power on the strip after 17 years?
From the first article:
https://archive.is/20231107213604/https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas
Right… So 17 years later… they’re so dissatisfied… and nothing changed? That’s not how governments stay in power… Something is wrong with the supposition as the results don’t make sense.
That’s how authoritarian governments stay in power, that or they start a war for the rally around the flag effect to give them a common enemy.
Hamas kicked fatah out of the strip? But being barely winning an election doesn’t mean all gazans are part of them or approve of what they’re doing.
I’m trying to find where I said that everyone approves… and I’m not seeing it. So I’m not sure what this point is supposed to mean. Sufficient people care about Hamas… Otherwise they would not be in power. They did originate their power from the Palestinian government. This is just simple fact. If EVERYONE hates Hamas as much as you claim they do… Why are they still there? How come that power is so fractured and different than the rest of Palestine(eg West Bank)?
If they’re so disliked… This would not be how it is. My point is that clearly they’re not as disliked as you claim. Otherwise we wouldn’t be here.
You seemed to be claiming from your first comment that Palestinian people deserved what was happening to them. I’m saying that some at least (probably most) don’t support Hamas, so it’s wrong to say they deserve what’s going on.