No, they are a proxy war by Iran to push back from normalized relationships between the Saudis and Israel in a time when Iran is starting to feel internal pressure to “catch up” to the rest of the world. I feel for the people there, but this is messier and more disgusting than a simple retaliation.
To be fair, there’s been brutality and retaliation in the region since the Paleolithic, at this point everyone can claim to be “just pushing back” against some era of oppression.
If only you cried for the oppressed as much as you cry for the oppressor.
There were two ‘Reigns of Terror,’ if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the ‘horrors’ of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break?
What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror–that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.
The sign of a campist, they can’t conceive of the idea that an act itself is what makes the action good or bad, so they assume nobody else can either, and therefore only call out bad actions selectively for debate advantage.
Power dynamics establish only if a motivation for bad actions is built into the systems of local governance. Not if those actions are bad.
I don’t care how oppressed the folks in Gaza are, the rape and murder of civilians is not suddenly ok because some Bougeyevik with a soviet iconography fetishized picrew pfp on twitter says they had it coming for being le evil settlers.
Nevermind how the settler shit hasn’t been a relevant issue for Gaza’s situation since the early 2000s. The half of Palestine that actually has to deal with what all the hammer and sickle profiles justify permitting mass rape and slaughter with is completely separate from where this shitstorm erupted from.
I did look through their Lemmy posts but arguably its not the full story I’ll admit.
The act with no context committed in a void is terrible, but we’re not talkimg about theoretical ethics, everything has context and that context can change everything. You probably wouldn’t be so angry at videos of resistance fighters raping and murdering Nazis and collaborators, why? Because of the context.
Violence against oppression is not something that can or should be condemned by those who have never faced that oppression.
Also hate to break it to you the settlers will be an issue for as long as they are there. Look at Northern Ireland, it’s been 400 years and the settlers there are still an issue. Look at America, it’s been 300 years and the settlers there are still causing issues for the indigenous people.
Imagine comparing civilians and children to fucking Nazis and Nazi collaborators. Particularly Israeli civilians and children given the impetus behind how Israel was ultimately recognized to begin with.
I picked an example that I knew the context would be almost universally thought of as morally good even though the act in it’s self is indefensible.
I’m not comparing those two either, the IDF exists and makes a great comparison against other fascist state’s armies. French resistance fighters also definitely killed innocent civilians and children so still makes a decent comparison since society views violent resistance against certain oppressors even with civilian casualties as okay and some as terrorism.
Also Imagine being so braindead that thinking being against fascist states means you are antisemitic.
Are you seriously comparing a group that openly targets civilians, hiding in civilian infrastructure, with a group that retaliates? Good luck coming up with a response that matches your standards when your country is under a rocket barrage. The double standards people develop when sitting in the safety of their home and regurgitating biased news… It’s thanks to people like you that this conflict thrives, because extremists from both sides use the lies you spread to their advantage.
They hold Israel to an invented standard that they apply to no other nation.
There was a brief, shining moment after 9/11 when the entire world was united against terrorism. But the critics of Israel were so determined to frame Israel as the bad guys that they invented a meaningless phrase “state terrorism” which just meant “anything that Israel does”. And they pretended that that was the moral equal to the actual terrorism of the Palestinians, deliberately targeting children and other innocents.
Israel builds a fence to keep out suicide bombers. They scream “apartheid!”
Israel bulldozes a vacated house that was used as a terrorist bomb-making factory. They scream “genocide!”
The problem with Israel’s critics is that since they damn Israel for any and every action, they have made their voices utterly useless.
Which is why it’s infuriating when someone takes a side without a shred of nuance here. Too many people don’t understand that you can can condemn Hamas, condemn the Israeli government, and still believe the Palestinian and Israeli civilians deserve to live in peace.
Hamas quite famously and openly uses their own people as human shields. They launch rocket attacks from hospitals and school buildings to give Israel the choice between retaliating by striking those places, or just sitting there and letting their own civilians die.
And when you get mad at Israel for the times they do retaliate, you’re 100 percent playing into the hands of the terrorists. The WHOLE reason they use this tactic is because YOUR reaction to it is their goal.
re you seriously comparing a group that openly targets civilians, hiding in civilian infrastructure, with a group that retaliates?
Israel oppresses Palestinians, Hamas retaliates and Israel retaliates against their retaliation, rinse and repeat. The only ones with the power to change this dynamic are Israel and they’re not doing that.
Palestinians have walked away from every peace talk and turned to terrorism.
Because every peace talk has been “We’re gonna offer you a fraction of your stuff and you should be happy about it”. The Israeli position is that Palestine should be happy with breadcrumbs, and Palestinians are understandably not happy about that. Israel hasn’t changed its position, and has actually gotten worse, hence terrorism.
None of them involved pulling out of Gaza and the West Bank, that’s for sure. When your peace offers practically don’t even include independence, it’s hard to take them seriously. And don’t get me started about East Jerusalem.
Well, Israel is literally surrounded by countries who want to destroy them and wipe them off the face of the earth for religious reasons. I understand their anxiety.
My friend, these anti-Israel zealots won’t be happy unless Israel just rolls over and lets Hamas kill Jews without consequence.
The anti-Israel crowd thinkd Israel is the devil of it fights back.
They think Israel is the devil, if, as you mentioned, they call buildings ahead of time, and give people time to evacuate, before Israel bombs terrorist. Headquarters, because I guess they think Palestinian buildings are more important than Israeli lives.
They think Israel is the devil if they build a security fence to keep our suicide bombers.
Mostly they think Israel is the devil because Israel offered the most general peace deal in history, but refuse to give Palestinian’s the Right of Return, which would have allowed Palestinians to claim voting rights, and literally vote to turn Israel into an anti-Jewish theocracy.
Now… Most of the people HERE haven’t the foggiest clue about any of that. And if you talked them through the situation and the options, they’d understand that Israel does not now, nor have they ever had a partner on the Palestinian side with which to make peace. They want Israel gone, full stop. And you can’t make peace with people who believe in literally no situations in which you still exist at the end.
Israel, on the other hand has showed throughout it’s history that it will do extraordinary things for peace. They gave up land for peace with Egypt. They have offered extraordinary concessions.
But the people who really needed to read this downvoted me in the first paragraph and are already typing a rant.
They should cede the land, yes. I don’t care if they keep living there, but they should, you know, stop stealing land and literal homes from the victims of the apartheid they’re benefitting from. You don’t blame a beaten dog for lashing out at the hand that hits it.
Wasn’t Israel literally demolishing the homes of innocent Palestinian families, causing small children to become homeless overnight? Terrorist groups usually form in response to something. Like, I don’t know, an apartheid state killing them if they don’t leave their homes
And now they’re a terrorist group killing innocent people leaving their homes. Israel decided to punish people for being born Palestinian. Hamas has decided to punish people for being born Israeli.
You can’t hate one but support the other. All Hamas has done is make it clear they’re no better, likely worse even.
Israel has demolished a lot of homes, most because they were being used by terrorists to make bombs.
Some for other reasons. We’d have to look at a case by case basis to see what you’re referring to.
If you’re saying that Israel just rolled in to for the purpose of making life miserable, and knocked down a house, I’d be really curious about who is making that claim and what evidence they are citing.
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest
Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations
How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday)
Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate
Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas
As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
It’s war, those are the rules of engagement for war. I’d they didn’t do that out would be considered a war crime. It’s not about what someone’s world view is. Israel definitely created the situation they are in today through their oppression, but that is how you do that. 15 minutes is enough time to evacuate.
Are you serious NOT defending a country that does that? That goes out of their way to destroy terrorist infrastructure while taking extraordinary steps to give civilians time to evacuate, necessarily letting terrorists themselves flee to go kill Israelis again, because that’s what it takes to protect innocent lives?!
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest
Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations
How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday)
Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate
Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas
As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why.
Sure… In the same way that cops don’t necessarily have to be racist to be part of a system that is unquestionably racist.
Plenty of people who aren’t anti-Jewish don’t give a second thought to the fact that they spend about 10000% more energy publicly criticizing Israel than they do any of Israel’s neighbors who oppress women horrifically, murder LGBTQ people, and are unabashedly pro-genocide.
They also criticize Israel for civilian collateral damage without acknowledging that Israeli’s steps to minimize those deaths are the most advanced in history, and that they easily outperform even the United States in minimizing casualties during military operations.
So, no… You don’t have to be anti-Jewish to be anti Israel, but when you criticize the only Jewish state for things that you give inarguably worse nations a pass for… Your absolutely feeding into an anti-Jewish system.
Hamas are barbaric terrorists
They learned from the “best”, irgun, lehi, etc…
They are oppressed people striking back against generations of brutality.
No, they are a proxy war by Iran to push back from normalized relationships between the Saudis and Israel in a time when Iran is starting to feel internal pressure to “catch up” to the rest of the world. I feel for the people there, but this is messier and more disgusting than a simple retaliation.
To be fair, there’s been brutality and retaliation in the region since the Paleolithic, at this point everyone can claim to be “just pushing back” against some era of oppression.
Kind of a fertile ground for proxy wars.
I wonder what oppression Afghani men are fighting today.
No amount of oppression justifies raping civilians.
If only you cried for the oppressed as much as you cry for the oppressor.
Mark Twain
How the fuck do you know they don’t?
The sign of a campist, they can’t conceive of the idea that an act itself is what makes the action good or bad, so they assume nobody else can either, and therefore only call out bad actions selectively for debate advantage.
Power dynamics establish only if a motivation for bad actions is built into the systems of local governance. Not if those actions are bad.
I don’t care how oppressed the folks in Gaza are, the rape and murder of civilians is not suddenly ok because some Bougeyevik with a soviet iconography fetishized picrew pfp on twitter says they had it coming for being le evil settlers.
Nevermind how the settler shit hasn’t been a relevant issue for Gaza’s situation since the early 2000s. The half of Palestine that actually has to deal with what all the hammer and sickle profiles justify permitting mass rape and slaughter with is completely separate from where this shitstorm erupted from.
I did look through their Lemmy posts but arguably its not the full story I’ll admit.
The act with no context committed in a void is terrible, but we’re not talkimg about theoretical ethics, everything has context and that context can change everything. You probably wouldn’t be so angry at videos of resistance fighters raping and murdering Nazis and collaborators, why? Because of the context.
Violence against oppression is not something that can or should be condemned by those who have never faced that oppression.
Also hate to break it to you the settlers will be an issue for as long as they are there. Look at Northern Ireland, it’s been 400 years and the settlers there are still an issue. Look at America, it’s been 300 years and the settlers there are still causing issues for the indigenous people.
Imagine comparing civilians and children to fucking Nazis and Nazi collaborators. Particularly Israeli civilians and children given the impetus behind how Israel was ultimately recognized to begin with.
I picked an example that I knew the context would be almost universally thought of as morally good even though the act in it’s self is indefensible.
I’m not comparing those two either, the IDF exists and makes a great comparison against other fascist state’s armies. French resistance fighters also definitely killed innocent civilians and children so still makes a decent comparison since society views violent resistance against certain oppressors even with civilian casualties as okay and some as terrorism.
Also Imagine being so braindead that thinking being against fascist states means you are antisemitic.
And so is Israel. Two terrorist groups throwing bombs to each other, without giving a heck about their own citizens. 🤷🏻♂️
Israel at least seems to care about Israelis from my perspective. Hamas just sees Palestinians as collateral damage.
Only if you’re the right kind of Israeli.
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What does this mean?
Nothing, the commenter supports terrorism so much they need to paint the other side as bad in any way
Are you seriously comparing a group that openly targets civilians, hiding in civilian infrastructure, with a group that retaliates? Good luck coming up with a response that matches your standards when your country is under a rocket barrage. The double standards people develop when sitting in the safety of their home and regurgitating biased news… It’s thanks to people like you that this conflict thrives, because extremists from both sides use the lies you spread to their advantage.
That’s exactly what they are doing.
They hold Israel to an invented standard that they apply to no other nation.
There was a brief, shining moment after 9/11 when the entire world was united against terrorism. But the critics of Israel were so determined to frame Israel as the bad guys that they invented a meaningless phrase “state terrorism” which just meant “anything that Israel does”. And they pretended that that was the moral equal to the actual terrorism of the Palestinians, deliberately targeting children and other innocents.
Israel builds a fence to keep out suicide bombers. They scream “apartheid!”
Israel bulldozes a vacated house that was used as a terrorist bomb-making factory. They scream “genocide!”
The problem with Israel’s critics is that since they damn Israel for any and every action, they have made their voices utterly useless.
The funny thing is I have no idea which side you’re talking about here.
Which is why it’s infuriating when someone takes a side without a shred of nuance here. Too many people don’t understand that you can can condemn Hamas, condemn the Israeli government, and still believe the Palestinian and Israeli civilians deserve to live in peace.
The Palestinian love Hamas, and utterly detest Israel
Right? This is shitty all 'round
Hamas quite famously and openly uses their own people as human shields. They launch rocket attacks from hospitals and school buildings to give Israel the choice between retaliating by striking those places, or just sitting there and letting their own civilians die.
And when you get mad at Israel for the times they do retaliate, you’re 100 percent playing into the hands of the terrorists. The WHOLE reason they use this tactic is because YOUR reaction to it is their goal.
Israel oppresses Palestinians, Hamas retaliates and Israel retaliates against their retaliation, rinse and repeat. The only ones with the power to change this dynamic are Israel and they’re not doing that.
They’ve offered these people peaceful coexistance and self-governance for more than half a century.
Palestinians have walked away from every peace talk and turned to terrorism.
The only ones with power to change the dynamic are the Palestinians.
Because every peace talk has been “We’re gonna offer you a fraction of your stuff and you should be happy about it”. The Israeli position is that Palestine should be happy with breadcrumbs, and Palestinians are understandably not happy about that. Israel hasn’t changed its position, and has actually gotten worse, hence terrorism.
Not at all. Israel’s offers of peace have been objectively the most generous terms in history.
None of them involved pulling out of Gaza and the West Bank, that’s for sure. When your peace offers practically don’t even include independence, it’s hard to take them seriously. And don’t get me started about East Jerusalem.
Yikes, dude. They already pulled out of Gaza… A looong time ago.
Well, Israel is literally surrounded by countries who want to destroy them and wipe them off the face of the earth for religious reasons. I understand their anxiety.
That being said, Israel is not innocent.
No. Just no.
Israel is an apartheid state leveraging state violence. They hold the cards and they shuffled the deck.
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My friend, these anti-Israel zealots won’t be happy unless Israel just rolls over and lets Hamas kill Jews without consequence.
The anti-Israel crowd thinkd Israel is the devil of it fights back.
They think Israel is the devil, if, as you mentioned, they call buildings ahead of time, and give people time to evacuate, before Israel bombs terrorist. Headquarters, because I guess they think Palestinian buildings are more important than Israeli lives.
They think Israel is the devil if they build a security fence to keep our suicide bombers.
Mostly they think Israel is the devil because Israel offered the most general peace deal in history, but refuse to give Palestinian’s the Right of Return, which would have allowed Palestinians to claim voting rights, and literally vote to turn Israel into an anti-Jewish theocracy.
Now… Most of the people HERE haven’t the foggiest clue about any of that. And if you talked them through the situation and the options, they’d understand that Israel does not now, nor have they ever had a partner on the Palestinian side with which to make peace. They want Israel gone, full stop. And you can’t make peace with people who believe in literally no situations in which you still exist at the end.
Israel, on the other hand has showed throughout it’s history that it will do extraordinary things for peace. They gave up land for peace with Egypt. They have offered extraordinary concessions.
But the people who really needed to read this downvoted me in the first paragraph and are already typing a rant.
ah yes how magnanimous of them to give back Sinai after illegally occupying it for 15 years.
They should cede the land, yes. I don’t care if they keep living there, but they should, you know, stop stealing land and literal homes from the victims of the apartheid they’re benefitting from. You don’t blame a beaten dog for lashing out at the hand that hits it.
I am against the settlements. Dick move.
But I’m against Palestinians blowing up school busses more.
Wasn’t Israel literally demolishing the homes of innocent Palestinian families, causing small children to become homeless overnight? Terrorist groups usually form in response to something. Like, I don’t know, an apartheid state killing them if they don’t leave their homes
And now they’re a terrorist group killing innocent people leaving their homes. Israel decided to punish people for being born Palestinian. Hamas has decided to punish people for being born Israeli.
You can’t hate one but support the other. All Hamas has done is make it clear they’re no better, likely worse even.
Israel has demolished a lot of homes, most because they were being used by terrorists to make bombs.
Some for other reasons. We’d have to look at a case by case basis to see what you’re referring to.
If you’re saying that Israel just rolled in to for the purpose of making life miserable, and knocked down a house, I’d be really curious about who is making that claim and what evidence they are citing.
Yeah, Israel has murdered Palestinian children, it just doesn’t get publicized as much.
Not condoning Hamas here. This is two shitty groups being shitty to each other and innocent civilians getting caught up in it.
You think giving notice makes bombing okay? It’s okay to hurt someone if you’re sending first aids afterwards?
What a sick world view.
Not to mentuon the illegal settlements and suprrssing and harassement of Palestinians daily.
Copied from another comment:
How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
It’s war, those are the rules of engagement for war. I’d they didn’t do that out would be considered a war crime. It’s not about what someone’s world view is. Israel definitely created the situation they are in today through their oppression, but that is how you do that. 15 minutes is enough time to evacuate.
I thought those were “shoot before you get shot”. Firing warning shots is being super polite about it. Still sucks for the civilians though.
You think giving notice DOESN’T make it okay?
Israel has found a way of destroying terrorists headquarters without injuring the civilians that Hamas is using as human shields.
In the history of the WORLD has any country every bent over backwards this much?
And you guys wonder why both Republicans and Democrats overwhelming ignore your criticisms? It’s because your position isn’t a serious one.
warning is when you stop people from leaving the area and then cluster bombing them
Are you seriously defending a country throwing bombs to civilians just because they « warn »? That’s one of the dumbest take I ever read here.
Are you serious NOT defending a country that does that? That goes out of their way to destroy terrorist infrastructure while taking extraordinary steps to give civilians time to evacuate, necessarily letting terrorists themselves flee to go kill Israelis again, because that’s what it takes to protect innocent lives?!
You’re NOT defending that country?
Why the fuck not. That’s insane.
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Because I defended anyone here? Stop reading what is comforting your shit opinion. Just said that both are terrorists.
You’re the one trying to defend one of the two side. I’m just saying that both are bad.
deleted by creator
Neither side initiate these, its tit for tat going back over 100 years
How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why.
People can criticize Israel and not have a problem with Jewish people.
Sure… In the same way that cops don’t necessarily have to be racist to be part of a system that is unquestionably racist.
Plenty of people who aren’t anti-Jewish don’t give a second thought to the fact that they spend about 10000% more energy publicly criticizing Israel than they do any of Israel’s neighbors who oppress women horrifically, murder LGBTQ people, and are unabashedly pro-genocide.
They also criticize Israel for civilian collateral damage without acknowledging that Israeli’s steps to minimize those deaths are the most advanced in history, and that they easily outperform even the United States in minimizing casualties during military operations.
So, no… You don’t have to be anti-Jewish to be anti Israel, but when you criticize the only Jewish state for things that you give inarguably worse nations a pass for… Your absolutely feeding into an anti-Jewish system.
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Removed by mod
lol ok bud